10 Commandments, graven images

[Saint_Michael]

be careful of legalism or scrupulocity.

I hardly think that creating graven images then bowing down to them is “legalism”. It is precisely what the second commandment forbids. It says do not create a graven image of things in Heaven or under the Earth. Then is says do not bow down to them, NOR serve them. That’s aking to me telling my son don’t fight with your sister, so not punch NOR hit her.

I think calling my objection legalism is far from reality.

I’m trying to answer anything put towards me, but I don’t have the ability to answer each post individually, but like I said Protestants who kneel before the graven cross, or have pictures of Jesus etc… Would be under the same problem as us.

I think photographs of loved ones and statues representing holy figures or God is a poor analogy. One is the epitome of legalism, the other is in direct contradiction to the 2nd commandment.

I’ve heard all the apologetics ont his one, and I must say everytime I see someone bowing down to a statue and kissing it something inside me tells me it’s not right.

In Brooklyn we have feasts where statues are paraded around, money taped to it, people cry at the statue, it’s just so bizarre.

I’ll have to pray on it, but really I just don’t know why it’s needed at all. Especially since it appears to contradict God’s commandment so clearly.

 

[Eireann]

Saint_Michael:

Hebrew:
2. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; Thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me; And showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep My commandments.

.

I’ll answer the generational bit for now…

Where did the Jews get this notion? Partly from the provisional Revelation given them by God. In the book of Exodus, God says, “I am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me” (20:5; 34:7). But is this meant to apply for all time unto the end of the world, like the Ten Commandments? No; many things in the Jewish Revelation were for the Jews only, such as circumcision, animal sacrifices, and other ritual and judicial laws. St John Chrysostom says explicitly that the declaration of punishment unto later generations “is not to be universally applied, but was made with regard to those going out of Egypt” (Homily 56 on St John).

Even within the Old Testament itself, God changed this arrangement. See all of chapter 18 in Ezekiel. God says, "What do you mean by repeating this proverb concerning the land of Israel, ‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge’? As I live, says the Lord God, this proverb shall no more be used by you in Israel." Further on, God says, "Yet you [Jews] say, ‘Why should not the son suffer for the iniquity of the father?’ When the son has done what is lawful and right, he shall surely live. ** The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father.** The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself" (18:19-20). Jeremiah 31:29-30 says the same.

ad2000.com.au/articles/2003/feb2003p12_1239.html

 

[RCCDefender]

Here are some of the ECF’s writings:
(sorry this will cover several posts)

“[T]hat it is neither possible for us ever to forsake Christ, who suffered for the salvation of such as shall be saved throughout the whole world (the blameless one for sinners), nor to worship any other. For Him indeed, as being the Son of God, we adore; but the martyrs, as disciples and followers of the Lord, we worthily love on account of their extraordinary affection towards their own King and Master, of whom may we also be made companions and fellow disciples! The centurion then, seeing the strife excited by the Jews, placed the body in the midst of the fire, and consumed it. Accordingly, we afterwards took up his bones, as being more precious than the most exquisite jewels, and more purified than gold, and deposited them in a fitting place, whither, being gathered together, as opportunity is allowed us, with joy and rejoicing, the Lord shall grant us to celebrate the anniversary of his martyrdom, both in memory of those who have already finished their course, and for the exercising and preparation of those yet to walk in their steps.” Martyrdom of Polycarp 17,18 (A.D. 157).

“[Appealing to the three companions of Daniel] Think of me, I beseech you, so that I may achieve with you the same fate of martyrdom.” Hippolytus of Rome, On Daniel, 11:30 (A.D. 204).

“As often as the anniversary comes round, **we make offerings for the dead **as birthday honours.” Tertullian, The Crown, 3 (A.D. 211).

“Nor is that kind of title to glories in the case of Celerinus, our beloved, an unfamiliar and novel thing. He is advancing in the footsteps of his kindred; he rivals his parents and relations in equal honours of divine condescension. His grandmother, Celerina, was some time since crowned with martyrdom. Moreover, his paternal and maternal uncles, Laurentius and Egnatius, who themselves also were once warring in the camps of the world, but were true and spiritual soldiers of God, casting down the devil by the confession of Christ, merited palms and crowns from the Lord by their illustrious passion. We always offer sacrifices for them, as you remember, as often as we celebrate the passions and days of the martyrs in the annual commemoration. Nor could he, therefore, be degenerate and inferior whom this family dignity and a generous nobility provoked, by domestic examples of virtue and faith. But if in a worldly family it is a matter of heraldry and of praise to be a patrician, of how much greater praise and honour is it to become of noble rank in the celestial heraldry! I cannot tell whom I should call more blessed,–whether those ancestors, for a posterity so illustrious, or him, for an origin so glorious. So equally between them does the divine condescension flow, and pass to and fro, that, just as the dignity of their offspring brightens their crown, so the sublimity of his ancestry illuminates his glory.” Cyprian, To Clergy and People, Epistle 33(39):3 (A.D. 250).

“I am also of opinion that there were many persons of the same name with John the apostle, who by their love for him, and their admiration and emulation of him, and their desire to be loved by the Lord as he was loved, were induced to embrace also the same designation, just as we find many of the children of the faithful called by the names of Paul and Peter.” Dionysius of Alexandria, Books of Promises, 5 (A.D. 257).

“Then we commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first Patriarchs, Prophets, Apostles, Martyrs, that at their prayers and intercessions God would receive our petition. Then on behalf also of the Holy Fathers and Bishops who have fallen asleep before us, and in a word of all who in past years have fallen asleep among us, believing that it will be a very great benefit to the souls, for whom the supplication is put up, while that holy and most awful sacrifice is set forth.” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 23:9 (A.D. 350).

continued…

 

[RCCDefender]

continued from above…

“Thus might you console us; but what of the flock? Would you first promise the oversight and leadership of yourself, a man under whose wings we all would gladly repose, and for whose words we thirst more eagerly than men suffering from thirst for the purest fountain? Secondly, persuade us that the good shepherd who laid down his life for the sheep has not even now left us; but is present, and tends and guides, and knows his own, and is known of his own, and, though bodily invisible, is spiritually recognized, and defends his flock against the wolves, and allows no one to climb over into the fold as a robber and traitor; to pervert and steal away, by the voice of strangers, souls under the fair guidance of the truth. Aye, I am well assured that his intercession is of more avail now than was his instruction in former days, since he is closer to God, now that he has shaken off his bodily fetters, and freed his mind from the clay which obscured it, and holds intercourse naked with the nakedness of the prime and purest Mind; being promoted, if it be not rash to say so, to the rank and confidence of an angel.” John Chrysostom, On the Death of his Father, Oration 18:4 (A.D. 374).

“He voluntarily undertook all the toil of the journey; he moderated the energy of the faithful on the spot; he persuaded opponents by his arguments; in the presence of priests and deacons, and of many others who fear the Lord, he took up the relics with all becoming reverence, and has aided the brethren in their preservation. These relics do you receive with a joy equivalent to the distress with which their custodians have parted with them and sent them to you. Let none dispute; let none doubt. Here you have that unconquered athlete. These bones, which shared in the conflict with the blessed soul, are known to the Lord. These bones He will crown, together with that soul, in the righteous day of His requital, as it is written, ‘we must stand before the judgment seat of Christ, that each may give an account of the deeds he has done in the body.’ One coffin held that honoured corpse. None other lay by his side. The burial was a noble one; the honours of a martyr were paid him. Christians who had welcomed him as a guest and then with their own hands laid him in the grave, have now disinterred him. They have wept as men bereaved of a father and a champion. But they have sent him to you, for they put your joy before their own consolation. Pious were the hands that gave; scrupulously careful were the hands that received. There has been no room for deceit; no room for guile. I bear witness to this. Let the untainted truth be accepted by you.” Basil, To Ambrose bishop of Milan, Epistle 197 (A.D. 375).

“Furthermore, as to mentioning the names of the dead, how is there anything very useful in that? What is more timely or more excellent than that those who are still here should believe that the departed do live, and that they have not retreated into nothingness, but that they exist and are alive with the Master…Useful too is the prayer fashioned on their behalf…For we make commemoration of the just and of sinners: of sinners, begging God’s mercy for them; of the just and the Fathers and Patriarchs and Prophets and Apostles and Evangelists and martyrs and confessors, and of bishops and solitaries, and of the whole list of them…” Epiphanius, Panarion, 75:8 (A.D. 377).

“Only may that power come upon us which strengthens weakness, through the prayers of him who made his own strength perfect in bodily weakness.” Gregory of Nyssa, Against Eunomius, 1:1(A.D. 380).

“But God forbid that any in this fair assembly should appear there suffering such things! but by the prayers of the holy fathers, correcting all our offences, and having shown forth the abundant fruit of virtue, may we depart hence with much confidence.” John Chrysostom, On Statues, Homily 6:19 (A.D. 387).

continued…**

 

[homewardbound]

This is what helped me understand everything having to do with this topic:

fisheaters.com/10commandments.html

 

[RCCDefender]

continued from above…

"As to our paying honor to the memory of the martyrs, and the accusation of Faustus, that we worship them instead of idols, I should not care to answer such a charge, were it not for the sake of showing how Faustus, in his desire to cast reproach on us, has overstepped the Manichaean inventions, and has fallen heedlessly into a popular notion found in Pagan poetry, although he is so anxious to be distinguished from the Pagans. For in saying that we have turned the idols into martyrs, be speaks of our worshipping them with similar rites, and appeasing the shades of the departed with wine and food…It is true that Christians pay religious honor to the memory of the martyrs, both to excite us to imitate them and to obtain a share in their merits, and the assistance of their prayers. But we build altars not to any martyr, but to the God of martyrs, although it is to the memory of the martyrs. No one officiating at the altar in the saints’ burying-place ever says, We bring an offering to thee, O Peter! or O Paul! or O Cyprian! The offering is made to God, who gave the crown of martyrdom, while it is in memory of those thus crowned. The emotion is increased by the associations of the place, and. love is excited both towards those who are our examples, and towards Him by whose help we may follow such examples. We regard the martyrs with the same affectionate intimacy that we feel towards holy men of God in this life, when we know that their hearts are prepared to endure the same suffering for the truth of the gospel. There is more devotion in our feeling towards the martyrs, because we know that their conflict is over; and we can speak with greater confidence in praise of those already victors in heaven, than of those still combating here.” Augustine, Against Faustus, 20:21 (A.D. 400).

"We, it is true, refuse to worship or adore, I say not the relics of the martyrs, but even the sun and moon, the angels and archangels, the Cherubim and Seraphim and ‘every name that is named, not only in this world but also in that which is to come.’ For we may not “serve the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Still we honour the relics of the martyrs, that we may adore Him whose martyrs they are. We honour the servants that their honour may be reflected upon their Lord who Himself says:–‘he that receiveth you receiveth me.’ I ask Vigilantius, Are the relics of Peter and of Paul unclean? Was the body of Moses unclean, of which we are told (according to the correct Hebrew text) that it was buried by the Lord Himself? And do we, every time that we enter the basilicas of apostles and prophets and martyrs, pay homage to the shrines of idols? Are the tapers which burn before their tombs only the tokens of idolatry? I will go farther still and ask a question which will make this theory recoil upon the head of its inventor and which will either kill or cure that frenzied brain of his, so that simple souls shall be no more subverted by his sacrilegious reasonings. Let him answer me this, Was the Lord’s body unclean when it was placed in the sepulchre? And did the angels clothed in white raiment merely watch over a corpse dead and defiled, that ages afterwards this sleepy fellow might indulge in dreams and vomit forth his filthy surfeit, so as, like the persecutor Julian, either to destroy the basilicas of the saints or to convert them into heathen temples?” Jerome, To Riparius, Epistle 109:1 (A.D. 404).

continued…

 

[RCCDefender]

continued…

"For you say that the souls of Apostles and martyrs have their abode either in the bosom of Abraham, or in the place of refreshment, or under the altar of God, and that they cannot leave their own tombs, and be present there they will…And while the devil and the demons wander through the whole world, and with only too great speed present themselves everywhere; are martyrs, after the shedding of their blood, to be kept out of sight shut up in a coffin, from whence they cannot escape? You say, in your pamphlet, that so long as we are alive we can pray for one another; but once we die, the prayer of no person for another can be heard, and all the more because the martyrs, though they cry for the avenging of their blood, have never been able to obtain their request. If Apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, when they ought still to be anxious for themselves, how much more must they do so when once they have won their crowns, overcome, and triumphed? A single man, Moses, oft wins pardon from God for six hundred thousand armed men; and Stephen, the follower of his Lord and the first Christian martyr, entreats pardon for his persecutors; and when once they have entered on their life with Christ, shall they have less power than before? The Apostle Paul says that two hundred and seventy-six souls were given to him in the ship; and when, after his dissolution, he has begun to be with Christ, must he shut his mouth, and be unable to say a word for those who throughout the whole world have believed in his Gospel? Shall Vigilantius the live dog be better than Paul the dead lion? I should be right in saying so after Ecclesiastes, if I admitted that Paul is dead in spirit. The truth is that the saints are not called dead, but are said to be asleep. Wherefore Lazarus, who was about to rise again, is said to have slept. And the Apostle forbids the Thessalonians to be sorry for those who were asleep.” Jerome, Against Vigilantius, 6 (A.D. 406).

“Even if we make images of pious men it is not that we may adore them as gods but that when we see them we might be prompted to imitate them.” Cyril of Alexandria, On Psalms 113 (115) (ante A.D. 444).

“The noble souls of the triumphant are sauntering around heaven, dancing in the choruses of the bodiless; and not one tomb for each conceals their bodies, but cities and villages divide them up and call them healers and preservers of souls and bodies, and venerate them a guardians and protectors of cities; and when they intervene as ambassadors before the Master of the universe the divine gifts are obtained through them; and though the body has been divided, its grace has continued undivided. And that little particle and smallest relic has the same power as the absolutely and utterly undivided martyr.” Theodoret of Cyrus, The Cure of Pagan Maladies, 8:54 (A.D. 449).

" Thou gainest nothing, thou prevailest nothing, O savage cruelty. His mortal frame is released from thy devices, and, when Laurentius departs to heaven, thou art vanquished. The flame of Christ’s love could not be overcome by thy flames, and the fire which burnt outside was less keen than that which blazed within. Thou didst but serve the martyr in thy rage, O persecutor: thou didst but swell the reward in adding to the pain. For what did thy cunning devise, which did not redound to the conqueror’s glory, when even the instruments of torture were counted as part of the triumph? Let us rejoice, then, dearly-beloved, with spiritual joy, and make our boast over the happy end of this illustrious man in the Lord, Who is ‘wonderful in His saints,’ in whom He has given us a support and an example, and has so spread abroad his glory throughout the world, that, from the rising of the sun to its going down, the brightness of his deacon’s light doth shine, and Rome is become as famous in Laurentius as Jerusalem was ennobled by Stephen. By his prayer and intercession we trust at all times to be assisted; that, because all, as the Apostle says, ‘who wish to live holily in Christ, suffer persecutions,’ we may be strengthened with the spirit of love, and be fortified to overcome all temptations by the perseverance of steadfast faith. Through our LORD Jesus Christ." Pope Leo the Great [regn. A.D. 440-461], On the Feast of Laurence the Martyr, Sermon 85:4 (ante A.D. 461).

only one more…

 

[RCCDefender]

last one…

“To the saints honour must be paid as friends of Christ, as sons and heirs of God: in the words of John the theologian and evangelist, As many as received Him, to them gave He power to became sons of God. So that they are no longer servants, but sons: and if sons, also heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ: and the Lord in the holy Gospels says to His apostles, Ye are My friends. Henceforth I call you not servants, for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth. And further, if the Creator and Lord of all things is called also King of Kings and Lord of Lords and God of Gods, surely also the saints are gods and lords and kings. For of these God is and is called God and Lord and King. For I am the God of Abraham, He said to Moses, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. And God made Moses a god to Pharaoh. Now I mean gods and kings and lords not in nature, but as rulers and masters of their passions, and as **preserving a truthful likeness to the divine image according to which they were made (for the image of a king is also called king), **and as being united to God of their own free-will and receiving Him as an indweller and becoming by grace through participation with Him what He is Himself by nature. Surely, then, the worshippers and friends and sons of God are to be held in honour? For the honour shown to the most thoughtful of fellow-servants is a proof of good feeling towards the common Master.” John of Damascene, Orthodox Faith, 4:15 (A.D. 743).

“We, therefore, following the royal pathway and the divinely inspired authority of our Holy Fathers and the traditions of the Catholic Church (for, as we all know, the Holy Spirit indwells her), define with all certitude and accuracy that just as the figure of the precious and life-giving Cross, so also the venerable and holy images, as well in painting and mosaic as of other fit materials, should be set forth in the holy churches of God, and on the sacred vessels and on the vestments and on hangings and in pictures both in houses and by the wayside, to wit, the figure of our Lord God and Saviour Jesus Christ, of our spotless Lady, the Mother of God, of the honourable Angels, of all Saints and of all pious people. For by so much more frequently as they are seen in artistic representation, by so much more readily are men lifted up to the memory of their prototypes, and to a longing after them; and to these should be given due salutation and honourable reverence, not indeed that true worship of faith (latria) which pertains alone to the divine nature; but to these, as to the figure of the precious and life-giving Cross and to the Book of the Gospels and to the other holy objects, incense and lights may be offered according to ancient pious custom. For the honour which is paid to the image passes on to that which the image represents, and he who reveres the image reveres in it the subject represented. For thus the teaching of our holy Fathers, that is the tradition of the Catholic Church, which from one end of the earth to the other hath received the Gospel, is strengthened.” Ecumenical Council of Nicea II, Action VII (A.D. 787).
(all emphasis is mine)
:tiphat: Hat tip to scripturecatholic.

 

[Eireann]

CCC **2132 **The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and “whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it.” The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone:

Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.

476 Since the Word became flesh in assuming a true humanity, Christ’s body was finite. Therefore the human face of Jesus can be portrayed; at the seventh ecumenical council (Nicaea II in 787) the Church recognized its representation in holy images to be legitimate.

You may not like it…but the Church has spoken…ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/mysite.html?q=Images&sufs=0&order=r&n=0

I can only add from CCC 2132 above, that worshipping a golden calf was direct worship to a golden calf, not to God, for whom the concept of God was impossible to understand.
But since the word now had an image in the body of Jesus Christ, venerating a statue of Jesus is directed at Jesus, but from an onlookers point of view it may not seem so.

 

[VociMike]

“Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; Thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them”

And I’m like we have graven images and people bwoing down to them, when the 2nd commandment seems so straightforward and simple.

Do you use money? That has likenesses on it. Driver’s license? Do you take pictures or look at pictures? Movies? TV? If you want to take this commandment at face value, that “any manner of likeness” clause is going to change your life in a really big way.

Or, you could understand the meaning of the commandment as the Church teaches it to be understood.

 

[Sandtigress]

You might also look at Galatians 3:1 "You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. "

Christ was portrayed as being crucified before their eyes - it sounds like they might have been looking at a crucifix or something very similar.

I think you have to remember cultural context in the light of this commandment - think of the Jews when Moses went up to receive the 10 commandments. They made a golden calf to be their god - not just to represent their god, but to actually BE their god. The people at this time had a habit of believing that inanimate objects were actually the god, not just a representation. Today, its different. Christ on the crucifix is not actually Jesus to us - its an image to remind us of what he went through. The same should go for the saints and any other statues we might have.

Is it possible to go wrong with them? Sure. But seen in their appropriate light, they are a great aid to spiritual prayer. I know I often find it easier to talk to someone in prayer when I can “see” them, but its also not necessary. If you don’t like statues, I don’t think it would be in any way a sin for you not to have one in your house. If its a barrier to your personal spiritual life, don’t use them, that’s okay.

 

[Saint_Michael]

Thanks for all the (name removed by moderator)ut all I can do is pray on it, but this is something I am not comfortable with, and probably never will be. I don’t want to go back and forth saying the same things, thanks.

 

[jemfinch]

I don’t want to go back and forth saying the same things, thanks.

Then perhaps you should consider actually interacting with the arguments people are presenting, rather than ignoring them and merely restating your prejudices

Jeremy

 

[Saint_Michael]

Then perhaps you should consider actually interacting with the arguments people are presenting, rather than ignoring them and merely restating your prejudices

Jeremy

???

Excuse me? My prejudices?

This board is to help people especially doubting Catholics, NOT for you to win victories, or to stick your chest out with pride from your patronizing witty retorts. Think about charity next time, instead of trying to get some other posters to think you’re awesome, “way to go Jeremey, you really put down that doubting Catholic, really gave him a well deserved dressing down”…

Doubting Catholics need an attitude like yours like they need a hole in the head.

 

[jemfinch]

Excuse me? My prejudices?

Would you rather that I attiribute your doubts to conscious choice?

This board is to help people especially doubting Catholics,

Which is especially why I want you to interact with the arguments here, rather than ignoring them. Many people here have made many strong arguments, and if you don’t believe the arguments, we would to know why so that we can clarify where you need clarity.

NOT for you to win victories,

It’s not about victories. It’s exactly and only about helping you try to understand the dogma of the Catholic Church that teaches that the veneration of icons of the saints is permissible. I want you to understand that so you can be a better a Catholic and the Body of Christ can be stronger in general. I don’t want you to fall into doubt about a belief that you’re required to assent to.

Think about charity next time,

If I weren’t thinking about charity, I wouldn’t have posted. Charity is trying to get you to interact with and discuss the arguments for and against veneration of images instead of letting you simply plug your ears and sing “La la la” while your doubt in a de fide doctrine of the Church is cultivated into spiritual blindness. That’s charity. Just allowing you to walk off without ever having interacted with the good arguments that have been presented in this thread – that’d be indifference or apathy, which is quite the opposite of charity.

Doubting Catholics need an attitude like yours like they need a hole in the head.

Doubting Catholics need to honestly ask questions, examine the answers, and if they find the answers disatisfactory, they should continue to ask more and harder questions. You’ve not yet done that in this thread. If you find the arguments here disatisfactory, explain why, and people here will gladly reinforce them with further examples or come up with new ones, just so that you, a doubting Catholic, can have a stronger faith. If that’s not charity, I don’t know what is.

Jeremy

 

[Jabronie]

I was thinking about the “Sabbath” thing today and something hit me. The Sabbath was the day of rest for the old covenent, the last day of the week. Jesus rose from the dead, bringing about the New Covenant, on the first day of the week.

We no longer celebrate the day of rest, but instead the day of life.

 

[valient_Lucy]

cough couch First Commandment Lucy! Not the Second. The First is about Idolatry, the Second is about Blasphemy.

The poster is referring to the Second Commandment in the Protestant records of the Ten Commandments. He wanted to know
1 Why Catholics do not have this commandment in our list on commandments
2 How Catholics justify breaking the commandments by having statues in the church which many people bow down or kneel in front of.
So I was using the second commandment according to the Protestant listing, WHICH the OP posted in the first question, and which I was responding to.

 

[kleary]

:banghead: In my initial post I already said I read this and found it to be a bad apologetic. The two examples God directly commands them to be built. There’s no examples of early Christians building statues and praying to them. The apologetic is very shallow and doesn’t give a good reason why we contradict the 2nd commandment and build statues and bow down to them.

What is the difference between a statue of the Virgin Mary or a painting of her with the Latin words “Ora Pro Nobis” underneath?

There is no difference. And in the catecombs there exists a painted image of the Blessed Virgin… so you are in a sense wrong.

If you are going to use the idol making prohibition for a prohibition of making statues then you must use it to mean paintings as well.

Ken

 

[kleary]

Thanks for all the (name removed by moderator)ut all I can do is pray on it, but this is something I am not comfortable with, and probably never will be. I don’t want to go back and forth saying the same things, thanks.

The problem comes from using your own independant wisdom, coming from hearing Protestant interpretations of Scripture…

Graven Images are not the same as idols unless they are worshipped and adored as God.

I kneel and bow before an image of Jesus Christ crucified. I am not adoring that image as if it is God, just honoring what I see, a holy image is what I see- it shows me what is sacred.

I know what Scripture says, not to bow down before “graven images”, yet the context of that prohibition is Idolatry, not veneration, not honor to what my eyes see as sacred- the same way you would kneel in prayer holding a bible in your hand.

A clear meaning of this is to see what Idolatry is. It is not as it used to be when the book of Exodus was written.

I know of people who carry “lucky charms” or a rabbits foot for “protection against evil”. That is a clear example of idolatry or worshipping a graven image. Another is astrology.

The Church went through this debate with the Iconoclast Heresy in the 8’th century. I am sure that the Bishops of the Church were properly schooled in Christian Theology to understand their decision that claimed using images in worship as we Catholics do does not constitute Idolatry.

To go against that decision of the Church and hold to a teaching to where you believe using images in worship constitutes Idolatry- is a departure from the Catholic Faith. Those who believe suchly are NOT Catholic and are excommunicated Ipso-Facto from the Church and need to go to confession before being able to receive Holy Communion.

No wonder our churches after Vatican II have suffered from people such as yourself who have stayed in the Church and tried to change her teaching on Sacred Images. May God have mercy on you. you are destroying the Christian Faith. Allah would be proud! The followers of that false god also are like you- using a primitive prohibition that has NOTHING TO DO with images in Christian worship.

newadvent.org/cathen/07620a.htm

Ken

 

[Saint_Michael]

To go against that decision of the Church and hold to a teaching to where you believe using images in worship constitutes Idolatry- is a departure from the Catholic Faith. Those who believe suchly are NOT Catholic and are excommunicated Ipso-Facto from the Church and need to go to confession before being able to receive Holy Communion.

No wonder our churches after Vatican II have suffered from people such as yourself who have stayed in the Church and tried to change her teaching on Sacred Images. May God have mercy on you. you are destroying the Christian Faith. Allah would be proud! The followers of that false god also are like you- using a primitive prohibition that has NOTHING TO DO with images in Christian worship.

newadvent.org/cathen/07620a.htm

Ken

You have no business being on these boards with your attitude. Do you honesty think rhetoric like this is beneficial to people with questions, and struggles?

Your post is so full of vitriol, judgmental self rightous etc… I can’t even believe you can write that and then claim I need to go to confession and for God to have have mercy on MY soul, what a joke.