10 lies about Scandals?

[PietroPaolo]

An atheist friend of mine sent me the following link, apparently saying that the Church is disengenuous about the abuse scandals:voicelessvictim.wordpress.com/2011/04/23/top-10-catholic-lies-about-child-rape/

Can these be true? He is pretty anti-church, and I am trying (unsuccessfully) to give the Church a chance. I mean I know mistakes were made, but was the cardinals/Pope’s mindset really this…well… strange?!

A better question than whether or not members (even high ranking clerics) did bad things, is whether or not the Church is the One True Church. If it is then, even if churchmen did horrible things, you should enter into communion with Her. If it isn’t then, even if churchmen are all perfect angels, you shouldn’t.

 

[SamH]

I respectfully disagree. You can most assuredly “turn in” a suspected molester or pedophile to the authorities with no more than a suspicion. They are the ones who are charged with investigating the allegation and pursuing legal recourse, if appropriate.

Agreed. The police and prosecutor will decide if charges are warranted. I know the KC diocese has a policy that all reported suspicions are immediately turned over to the police.

To be honest the “priest scandal” is minor compared to the public school teacher scandals. Someday the NEA will pay for returning known child molestors in the classrooms.

 

[Jacqueline_1156]

I can understand how a nominal Catholic, a non-Catholic ,and/or a victim of abuse might feel betrayed by a priest after having heard a confession from a child abuser and cannot report it. But if the seal of the confessional is broken then no one will use it and be able to find forgiveness and healing. I am a former victim of child abuse and have after many years forgiven my abuser who was in such a position that he never should have done what he did. I never expected my confessor to break his holy oath. That is not his job. Nor is it his job to judge. He is there to offer spiritual guidance, forgiveness, love and, in certain cases, counsel the individual to do the right thing. If we lose the sanctity of the confessional then we will be lost. However, that being said, if a priest talks to another priest, cardinal, bishop or whatever, and it is outside the confessional than I know of no impediment to turning the man into authorities but only with reasonable proof or whatever is necessary. I believe this done now but wasn’t done “way back when”. I think if you understood how deeply our Church has been infiltrated by those who would PURPOSLY destroy Her you would not be so shocked. Evil is everywhere and has it’s tentacles in every secular and holy place. I know how hard it is to accept that those people that occupy positions of holiness can be so capable of such evil but they are not saints. Remember, also, that ALL are sinners and fall short of the Glory of God. Personally, I feel that if this topic were discussed more openly in the parishes then more victims would feel safer about reporting their abusers to the authorities and the would be or actual child abuser would think twice about abusing a child. I know this isn’t what you want to hear but it is all that can be done.

 

[HabemusFrancis]

Just to be clear:

So the Church teaches that priests/bishops are not/should not be above secular law?

Like if a priest breaks the law of the land he lives, should he have to face consequences?

Because keep in mind, a priest is not like a normal person, no matter what the VII ers…

A priest is one through who Jesus passes through into the eucharist, christens young/new Cathoics, provides a cradle to grave salvation service for the Catholic laity.

He also is a part of the priesthood, the church which is distinct/ seperate from civil society.

All that aside, I just want to confirm that if a priest sees a fellow priest assaulting a child in the rectory and stops it, he is not a traitor to his “brother priest” and the “royal priesthood as a whole” if he calls the police immediately? Because if true, Cardinal Law didnt get the memo…

 

[1ke]

This is absolutely the most immoral, I’m so taken aback I can not form a coherent statement that can describe how evil this is. To knowingly allow this to even potentially continue is unspeakable.

The saving grace of the sacrament of Reconciliation is from God. It is not evil. It is the opposite.

Do you say this out loud and not cringe?

What is most important? One’s eternal soul.

And therefore, one must be free to confess *anything *and receive forgiveness for it. Fear has no place in the confessional.

 

[1ke]

Just to be clear:

So the Church teaches that priests/bishops are not/should not be above secular law?

Like if a priest breaks the law of the land he lives, should he have to face consequences?

Yes. A priest is just like anyone else and must obey the just laws of the place he lives. He will have to face the consequences if he does not.

Because keep in mind, a priest is not like a normal person, no matter what the VII ers…

The Church does not teach that.

A priest is one through who Jesus passes through into the eucharist, christens young/new Cathoics, provides a cradle to grave salvation service for the Catholic laity.

This is true. This in no way means a priest can commit grave acts with impunity.

He also is a part of the priesthood, the church which is distinct/ seperate from civil society.

And yet, also still part of civil society.

All that aside, I just want to confirm that if a priest sees a fellow priest assaulting a child in the rectory and stops it, he is not a traitor to his “brother priest” and the “royal priesthood as a whole” if he calls the police immediately?

Of course.

Because if true, Cardinal Law didnt get the memo…

It is not your place to speculate on things you have no first hand knowledge of. Stay on topic.

 

[sealoch]

The saving grace of the sacrament of Reconciliation is from God. It is not evil. It is the opposite.

What is most important? One’s eternal soul.

And therefore, one must be free to confess *anything *and receive forgiveness for it. Fear has no place in the confessional.

What about the people who are being abused? This is absurd there is no way to defend this to continue is clearly pointless. I am saddened by this and hope that you are not a priest.

 

[1ke]

What about the people who are being abused?

Nothing prevents them from reporting the situation.

This is absurd there is no way to defend this

In your opinion.

I am saddened by this and hope that you are not a priest.

i am sorry that you are saddened by and do not understand the need for sacramental reconciliation.

 

[sealoch]

Nothing prevents them from reporting the situation.

In your opinion.

i am sorry that you are saddened by and do not understand the need for sacramental reconciliation.

That is not how abuse works for victims frequently they do not report it. especially with an authoritative figure such as teachers, family, priests and so on.

It is my opinion that is an astute observation that you made.

I forgive you? But that is not what saddens me.

 

[estesbob]

That is not how abuse works for victims frequently they do not report it. especially with an authoritative figure such as teachers, family, priests and so on.

It is my opinion that is an astute observation that you made.

I forgive you? But that is not what saddens me.

So it your opinion that any crime admitted in the confessional should immediately be reported to the police?

 

[sealoch]

So it your opinion that any crime admitted in the confessional should immediately be reported to the police?

I hold the opinion that it should be the same standard that is held for psychologists:

Child Abuse: Child abuse reporting laws require therapists to report any information obtained during the course of counseling that suggests a child is currently being abused or is in danger of being abused.
Elder Abuse: Similar to the case of child abuse listed above, therapists are required by law to report any information that suggests an elderly person is being harmed or neglected.
Dangerousness to Self or Others: Therapists are required under certain circumstances to break confidentiality when a client presents a serious threat to themselves or others.
Court Order: Therapists are required at times to disclose confidential information by a court order. In these circumstances, the therapist is ethically bound to state his/her adherence to the ethical guidelines related to confidentiality as defined by the American Psychological Association. Even with a court order, therapists are compelled by the APA Code of Ethics to make every effort to keep information disclosed in the therapy confidential. However, a judge may acknowledge the therapist’s commitment to the ethics code and still order the therapist to disclose the information in court. In this case, the therapist would limit the information diclosed only to material pertinent to the court order.

this bit was taken from caps.ku.edu/~caps/askstaff/

 

[adrift]

Code of Ethics

It is unethical for a priest to reveal a confession. A priest who reveals a confession is excommunicated.

In the United States

The First Amendment is largely cited as the jurisprudential basis. The earliest and most influential case acknowledging the priest–penitent privilege was People v. Phillips, where the Court of General Sessions of the City of New York refused to compel a priest to testify. The Court opined:

It is** essential **to the free exercise of a religion, that its ordinances should be administered—that its ceremonies as well as its essentials should be protected. Secrecy is of the essence of penance. The sinner will not confess, nor will the priest receive his confession, if the veil of secrecy is removed: To decide that the minister shall promulgate what he receives in confession, is to declare that there shall be no penance…

 

[sealoch]

It is unethical for a priest to reveal a confession. A priest who reveals a confession is excommunicated.

In the United States

Which is less ethical reveal a child molester or permit them to continue?

 

[KrazyKat]

Better to stand before God as an excommunicated priest than one who protected a child molester. Anyone who protects a child molester is an accomplice in any other crimes that are committed by this person.

 

[estesbob]

I hold the opinion that it should be the same standard that is held for psychologists:

Child Abuse: Child abuse reporting laws require therapists to report any information obtained during the course of counseling that suggests a child is currently being abused or is in danger of being abused.
Elder Abuse: Similar to the case of child abuse listed above, therapists are required by law to report any information that suggests an elderly person is being harmed or neglected.
Dangerousness to Self or Others: Therapists are required under certain circumstances to break confidentiality when a client presents a serious threat to themselves or others.
Court Order: Therapists are required at times to disclose confidential information by a court order. In these circumstances, the therapist is ethically bound to state his/her adherence to the ethical guidelines related to confidentiality as defined by the American Psychological Association. Even with a court order, therapists are compelled by the APA Code of Ethics to make every effort to keep information disclosed in the therapy confidential. However, a judge may acknowledge the therapist’s commitment to the ethics code and still order the therapist to disclose the information in court. In this case, the therapist would limit the information diclosed only to material pertinent to the court order.

this bit was taken from caps.ku.edu/~caps/askstaff/

So we should change 2,000 years of teachings and traditions because Psychologists say we should? Who gave them authority over the One True Church?

 

[estesbob]

Better to stand before God as an excommunicated priest than one who protected a child molester. Anyone who protects a child molester is an accomplice in any other crimes that are committed by this person.

So, as a Catholic, you believe a Priest should break the seal of confession if a child molester confesses his sin?

 

[estesbob]

Which is less ethical reveal a child molester or permit them to continue?

There are no “ethics” involved here. A Priest can not break the seal of confession. Period. Its not a seal that can be broken on a case by case basis, it is inviolate.

 

[KrazyKat]

So, as a Catholic, you believe a Priest should break the seal of confession if a child molester confesses his sin?

Yes. How can one sleep at night knowing children are being raped or forced to commit any sexual act, how does anyone stand before God and say but the Church says so. We are talking about children here, the innocent, no one can justify looking the other way.

 

[estesbob]

The sacramental seal is inviolable. Quoting Canon 983.1 of the Code of Canon Law, the Catechism states, “It is a crime for a confessor in any way to betray a penitent by word or in any other manner or for any reason” (no. 2490). A priest, therefore, cannot break the seal to save his own life, to protect his good name, to refute a false accusation, to save the life of another, to aid the course of justice (like reporting a crime), or to avert a public calamity. He cannot be compelled by law to discloe a person’s confession or be bound by any oath he takes, e.g. as a witness in a court trial. A priest cannot reveal the contents of a confession either directly, by repeating the substance of what has been said, or indirectly, by some sign, suggestion, or action. A Decree from the Holy Office (Nov. 18, 1682) mandated that confessors are forbidden, even where there would be no revelation direct or indirect, to make any use of the knowledge obtained in the confession that would “displease” the penitent or reveal his identity.

catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0628.html

 

[estesbob]

Yes. How can one sleep at night knowing children are being raped or forced to commit any sexual act, how does anyone stand before God and say but the Church says so. We are talking about children here, the innocent, no one can justify looking the other way.

What other sins do you believe should not be protected by the seal of confession? If a woman confesses to adultery should the Priest tell her husband or should he just look the other way? What if a man confesses stealing from his partners? Should the Priest call them up or should he just look the other way?