10 lies about Scandals?

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Not if it was told in confession.
Invoking confession is a straw man.

It’s pretty well documented that bishops implicated in the scandals knew about behavior of their priests from sources OTHER than confession. Also, priests don’t normally confess to their bishop – they confess to other priests. The seal of confession has zero to do with shielding the abusers.
 
Invoking confession is a straw man.

It’s pretty well documented that bishops implicated in the scandals knew about behavior of their priests from sources OTHER than confession. Also, priests don’t normally confess to their bishop – they confess to other priests. The seal of confession has zero to do with shielding the abusers.
You need to read the thread which has NOTHING to do with the Bishops Behavior. It is about another posters contention that Priests should call the police whenevera penitnet making a confession confesses to molesting a chiuld
 
You have constructed a very elaborate straw man, but that’s all it is – a straw man.

The Church would not be in the mess it is now if it’s internal procedures (i.e. the canon law) worked. The history of the scandal is well documented – the victims reporters abusers to the bishops. The bishops swore them to secrecy per the infamous 1922 and 1962 instructions but otherwise did nothing. Only then the victims went to the civilian government for help, and all hell broke loose.

This failure is even more damning if you realize that presence of clerical abuse in the Catholic is documented since Middle Ages. This is NOT a new phenomenon. What is new however, is that the 1922 and 1962 instructions focused on maintaining secrecy, while older pronouncements on the matter called for swift and harsh punishments – of both clerical abusers and their episcopal enablers. To quote Thomas Doyle:
There are two aspects of the ecclesiastical legislation and overall attitude toward clerical sexual activity that stand in marked contrast to the contemporary period. The first is the documented fact that in addition to a stringent admonition by Peter Damian in the Book of Gomorrah, at least two general or ecumenical councils took direct aim at church leaders who supported errant clerics by their failure to take decisive action. The 4th Lateran Council (1215) and the Council of Basle (1449) both recognized the fact that curbing the vices depended on cooperative superiors. The canon from the Lateran Council is succinct:Prelates who dare support such in their iniquities, especially in view of money or other temporal advantages, shall be subject to a like punishment.
The other unique feature of this period is the collaboration of the church with secular authorities in the enforcement of ecclesiastical laws. The Catholic Church was the only Christian denomination and the dominant social force in the medieval period. Separation of church and state was unheard of which meant that the boundaries between the secular and religious were often blurred. Church authorities considered celibacy violations to be more than a purely religious matter. They caused some degree of scandal and therefore were a matter of public interest. To enhance the opprobrium the church often tried accused clerics in the ecclesiastical tribunals and then turned them over to secular authorities for additional prosecution and punishment. Penalties were harsh and sometimes included execution.

…]
By 1566, in the first year of his pontificate, Pope Pius V (1566-72) recognized a need to publicly attack clerical sodomy. The constitution Romani Pontifices promulgated legislation against a variety of actions and practices, including the ‘crime against nature.” This short canon condemned all who committed this crime and prescribed that they be handed over to secular authorities for punishment. Clerics however were to be first degraded, presumably by an ecclesiastical court, and then handed over to secular authorities.
Two years later the same pope apparently found it necessary to fire another salvo at clerical sodomy. The constitution Horrendum specifically named clerics who committed “the sin against nature which incurred God’s wrath” (“quae contra naturam est, propter quam ira Dei venit in filios diffidentiae.”) and stipulated that they be punished with deprivation of income, suspension from all offices and dignities and in some cases, degradation.
Summarizing the medieval period, it is clear that the bishops were not as preoccupied with secrecy as they are today. Clergy sexual abuse of all kinds was apparently well known by the public, the clergy and secular law enforcement authorities. There was a constant stream of disciplinary legislation from the church but none of it was successful in changing clergy behavior. In spite of a millennium of failure, the popes and bishops never gave serious thought to the viability of mandatory celibacy. The variety of spiritual punishments was joined, in the later period, with severe corporal penalties, inflicted by secular authorities. Finally, and most important, at certain periods, church authorities recognized that the problem was not only dysfunctional clerics, but irresponsible leadership.
 
You need to read the thread which has NOTHING to do with the Bishops Behavior. It is about another posters contention that Priests should call the police whenevera penitnet making a confession confesses to molesting a chiuld
I did read the thread – the text linked in the OP does not mention the word “confession” at all.

The thread has been derailed into discussing the seal of confession. This is completely off-topic w.r.t. to the OP. The scandal is well documented, and it’s apparent from the documentation that seal of confession had very little (if anything) to do with enabling abusers. Leadership on the other hand…
 
You have constructed a very elaborate straw man, but that’s all it is – a straw man.

The Church would not be in the mess it is now if it’s internal procedures (i.e. the canon law) worked. The history of the scandal is well documented – the victims reporters abusers to the bishops. The bishops swore them to secrecy per the infamous 1922 and 1962 instructions but otherwise did nothing. Only then the victims went to the civilian government for help, and all hell broke loose.

This failure is even more damning if you realize that presence of clerical abuse in the Catholic is documented since Middle Ages. This is NOT a new phenomenon. What is new however, is that the 1922 and 1962 instructions focused on maintaining secrecy, while older pronouncements on the matter called for swift and harsh punishments – of both clerical abusers and their episcopal enablers. To quote Thomas Doyle:
NOBODY is defending clerical abuse. NOBODY. The discussion, again, is whether a priest should be compelled to break the seal of confession if someone confesses to molesting a child.
 
You have constructed a very elaborate straw man, but that’s all it is – a straw man.
On the contrary, your own following information directly supports what I said. The church has always been careful to FIRST keep such disciplinary decisions in-house precisely because of the potential for state domination of the clergy. Your own examples clearly show that accused priests were FIRST evaluated by in house tribunals and only then handed over tot he state if found guilty.

This stands in stark contrast to the assertion that a bishop ought to turn any and all accusations against a priest over to the state for investigation. In America from 1940 to present that might not be a fatal policy. In many places and many times, you might as well just execute all the priests yourself.

Nobody denies that priests are subject to human failures like anybody else. The straw man is to pretend that sexual abuse is peculiarly present in the catholic priesthood. The John Jay data pretty clearly illustrates that this is a sinful human problem, not a priest problem. As such, it HAS been with us since the beginning, but not for the reasons some seem to want to imagine.

I also don’t deny that we had a generation of appallingly bad bishops in this regard (and rather a few other regards, if I can say that!). Still doesn’t make it a good idea to abandon the long term practice of in-house investigations FIRST followed by turnover to civil authorities in countries and societies where there is a fair legal system and climate.

estesbob, I think only one poster is fixated on violating the confessional seal. That doesn’t make the whole thread about it.
 
That is very helpful thank you.

That being said, hypothetically speaking, is it right, according to Catholic teaching, for a bishop or priest to report an abusive priest to the police?

Think about it: It would be a priest turning in a “brother” priest, and by so doing damaging the sacred character of the priesthood. It also would involve the secular state encroaching on the Church, something they may not have a right to do.

Furthermore, how could one reasonably expect a bishop to denounce his own priest, his spiritual “son?” Bringing disgrace, scandal, and disrupting the perception of the priesthood?

Don’t forget, no matter how poorly a priest may behave, he remains a priest ,called by god, forever…

Also, if Cardinals Law, Bevilaqua, Mahoney, Bishop weakland, etc. had behaved differently and turned their abusive priests in to police, might JP II have been displeased with them? or would he have been pleased instead?
Checking on my understanding of the thread history here, and I think I’m right. I think the mistake/blunder/crime committed by many bishops of recent history was not that they failed to immediately report allegation to the police, but that they failed to turn such men over for prosecution even after they had determined that the allegations were true. There’s no description for that other than dereliction of duty of the most heinous sort.
 
So if it is right and proper for a bishop/priest to report an abusive priest to police, how do you explain Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos’ letter?

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8624763.stm

In this letter he praised a French bishop for refusing to turn in a molesting priest into the police, saying that the priest was like the bishops “son” and a father would not/ should not turn his “son” into the police. Im not so sure about that…

The cardinal also goes on to say that Blessed (soon to be Saint) John Paul II approved the letter.

The cardinal must be lying. Why would the cardinal want to discredit JPII in such a dastardly way? I find it highly unlikely that any saint would be A-OK with molesting priests doing their thing…
 
So if it is right and proper for a bishop/priest to report an abusive priest to police, how do you explain Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos’ letter?
There is nothing to explain here, but a lot to analyze.

Do you know who is to blame for the scandal according to the Cardinal? It’s not the abusers. It’s not their inept bishops. It’s not the greedy lawyers. No, it’s… wait for it… the freemasons!

So if you want to know how we got in this mess – this is how. By promoting people with Cardinal’s mindset to leadership positions.
 
So if it is right and proper for a bishop/priest to report an abusive priest to police, how do you explain Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos’ letter?

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8624763.stm

In this letter he praised a French bishop for refusing to turn in a molesting priest into the police, saying that the priest was like the bishops “son” and a father would not/ should not turn his “son” into the police. Im not so sure about that…

The cardinal also goes on to say that Blessed (soon to be Saint) John Paul II approved the letter.

The cardinal must be lying. Why would the cardinal want to discredit JPII in such a dastardly way? I find it highly unlikely that any saint would be A-OK with molesting priests doing their thing…
The cardinal should have turned him in.
 
There is nothing to explain here, but a lot to analyze.

Do you know who is to blame for the scandal according to the Cardinal? It’s not the abusers. It’s not their inept bishops. It’s not the greedy lawyers. No, it’s… wait for it… the freemasons!

So if you want to know how we got in this mess – this is how. By promoting people with Cardinal’s mindset to leadership positions.
Wow, weller. That website is almost as embarrassing to its author as it is to the Cardinal it decries.

But I rather disagree with your conclusion. We got in this situation because we’ve too long considered other PEOPLE to be our enemies (much like the website author clearly does). Such clique thinking is EXACTLY what clouds the judgment of people to the point where they will commit horrors in order to protect one of “us” against the retribution of “them.”

The website author’s opinion seems to be that all ‘traditional’ catholics should be shunned and tossed from the church, or at least the priesthood. It strikes me that this is EXACTLY the sort of thinking that lead to the scandals: trumping up a scapegoat (greedy lawyers, masons, trad catholics) in order to feel safely ensconced in a protected environment once THOSE people are dealt with. It doesn’t work, can’t we ever learn that?

Instead, what we need to recognize is that only the devil is truly our enemy. Everybody else is just a sinner in need of a Savior. When THAT is your mindset, there does not arise the idea that we must protect “ours” when threatened by “them.” We’re ALL “ours.”
 
A FEW WORDS TO ALL

One fact that is often overlooked is that the priests were not typically involved with children but with young teenagers - young men specifically. Thus, the problem was not pedophilia but homosexuality.

The media has overlooked this because homosexuality enjoys a sympathetic relationship with the press.

Here are a few facts from Wikipedia:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases

Seminary training

The 2004 John Jay Report stated “the problem was largely the result of poor seminary training and insufficient emotional support for men ordained in the 1940s and 1950s.”[227] A report by the National Review Board issued simultaneously with the John Jay Report pointed to two major deficiencies on the part of seminaries: failure to screen candidates adequately, followed by failure to “form” these candidates appropriately for the challenges of celibacy. These themes are taken up by a recent memoir[228] that combines a first-hand account of life in a minor seminary during the 1960s with a review of the scientific literature about sexually abusive behavior, and then identifies specific aspects of seminary life that could have predisposed future priests to engage in such behavior.

Impact of psychology from previous decades

Some bishops and psychiatrists have asserted that the prevailing psychology of the times suggested that people could be cured of such behavior through counseling.[229] Thomas Plante, a psychiatrist specializing in abuse counseling and considered an expert on clerical abuse, states “the vast majority of the research on sexual abuse of minors didn’t emerge until the early 1980’s. So, it appeared reasonable at the time to treat these men and then return them to their priestly duties. In hindsight, this was a tragic mistake.”[35]

Robert S. Bennett, the Roman Catholic Washington attorney who headed the National Review Board’s research committee, named “too much faith in psychiatrists” as one of the key problems concerning Catholic sex abuse cases.[230] About 40% of the abusive priests had received counseling before being reassigned.[231]

Pedophilia and ephebophilia

In Sexual Addiction and Compulsivity: The Journal of Treatment and Prevention, Cimbolic & Cartor (2006) noted that because of the large share of post-pubescent male minors among cleric victims there is need to further study the differential variables related to ephebophilia (sexual interest in mid-to-late adolescents, generally ages 15 to 19)[232][233] versus pedophilia (sexual interest in prepubescent children (generally those 13 years of age or younger) offenders.[234] Cartor, Cimbolic & Tallon (2008) found that 6 percent of the cleric offenders in the John Jay Report are pedophiles, 32 percent ephebophiles, 15 percent 11 & 12 year olds only (both male and female), 20 percent indiscriminate, and 27 percent mildly indiscriminate.[235]

They also found distinct differences between the pedophile and ephebophile groups. They reported that there may be “another group of offenders who are more indiscriminate in victim choice and represent a more heterogeneous, but still a distinct offender category” and suggested further research to determine “specific variables that are unique to this group and can differentiate these offenders from pedophile and ephebophile offenders” so as to improve the identification and treatment of both offenders and victims.[235]

All victims in the John Jay report were minors. Using a non-standard definition of “pre-pubescent,” the Causes and Context Study of the John Jay College estimated that only a small percentage of offender priests were true pedophiles.[236] The study classified victims as pre-pubescent if they were age 10 or younger, whereas the age bracket specified in the current guidelines issued by the American Psychiatric Association is “generally age 13 or younger.” A recent book estimates that if the latter definition were used instead of the former, the percentage of victims classified as prepubescent would have been 54% rather than the 18% figure cited by the Causes and Context report, and that a higher percentage of priests would therefore have been classified as pedophiles.[228] The same book also points out that with the pending new definition of “pedohebephilic disorder” in DSM-5, an even higher percentage of victims would fall into a category consistent with their abusers having a recognized psychosexual disorder.
 
So if it is right and proper for a bishop/priest to report an abusive priest to police, how do you explain Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos’ letter?

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8624763.stm

In this letter he praised a French bishop for refusing to turn in a molesting priest into the police, saying that the priest was like the bishops “son” and a father would not/ should not turn his “son” into the police. Im not so sure about that…

The cardinal also goes on to say that Blessed (soon to be Saint) John Paul II approved the letter.

The cardinal must be lying. Why would the cardinal want to discredit JPII in such a dastardly way? I find it highly unlikely that any saint would be A-OK with molesting priests doing their thing…
I tracked this back to see what exactly happened. In at least one case, the priest involved was not molesting a child but a pre-pubescent boy aged 12 and older.

This is homosexuality - not pedophilia. The media will not tell you that because liberals in the media want to portray homosexuality in a positive light.
 
Robert S. Bennett, the Roman Catholic Washington attorney who headed the National Review Board’s research committee, named “too much faith in psychiatrists” as one of the key problems concerning Catholic sex abuse cases.[230] About 40% of the abusive priests had received counseling before being reassigned.[231]
It’s important not to make excuses for blunders the bishops made that are simply dereliction of duty. Note that the above statistic demonstrates that 60% of abuser priests must have been reassigned WITHOUT psychiatric treatment, no? You can’t just transfer the blame to a gay cabal and quack psychiatrists. It’s too big for that. Bishops simply often failed to see the kid in the pew as just as precious to God as a priest with problems. Instead, as with the Cardinal referenced, too many came to see their priests as “us” and the laity as “them.” As the author of that other website so clearly demonstrates, that blunder is hardly restricted to the club of priests. It’s a human mindset that creeps in everywhere.
 
It’s important not to make excuses for blunders the bishops made that are simply dereliction of duty. .
Dereliction of duty assumes that there was a duty in the first place. However, if you read about the scandals it jumps out at you that bishops have simply given no consideration to the well-being of victims. They felt no duty to protect the victims.

They have, however, felt duty to protect the Church from public scandal, law enforcement and compensation claims – which is best evidenced by the amount of effort and money which has been expended in this area.

Cardinal Hoyos is a perfect example of this mindset.

This is also why current anti-molestation policies are doomed to fail in the long run – they have been designed to protect bishops (and assets) from litigation, not fix the underlying problems.
 
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