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JustaServant
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Where does his ‘flock’ go then for those services?
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AbideWithMe
Guest
JRRTFAN----
They still do. You can’t tar and feather most pastors, who are closely involved in the mundane cares of their congregation, based on the lives of high-visibility celebrity pastors.
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Sailor_Kenshin
Guest
The class envy and smugness displayed by a lot of posters here is exactly what drives people away from the church.
It is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS what a TV pastor makes, what he drives, how he dresses, as long as it is within the law. Nor do you have a right to demand he do what YOU want with his money, any more than you have a right to declare how much money a private individual may earn and how he may spend it.
On EWTN Live, there’s a young woman who represents the Canadian pro-life movement. She has great success—but not by wagging her fingers in someone else’s face.
Bless the Protestants for their good work. Because some of them do the heavy lifting Catholics refuse to do.
It is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS what a TV pastor makes, what he drives, how he dresses, as long as it is within the law. Nor do you have a right to demand he do what YOU want with his money, any more than you have a right to declare how much money a private individual may earn and how he may spend it.
On EWTN Live, there’s a young woman who represents the Canadian pro-life movement. She has great success—but not by wagging her fingers in someone else’s face.
Bless the Protestants for their good work. Because some of them do the heavy lifting Catholics refuse to do.
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KathleenGee
Guest
Deflecting back to the Vatican…you start looking at who owns what…
The Vatican is the property and state of the Catholic Church. Now look up documents and try to find out who holds the dough.
Not the Pope, not the cardinals…not the bishops…there is not one single Catholic who owns the Vatican.
The Catholic Church is comprised of all believers…so in one sense, we all ‘own’ the Vatican by the profession of our faith. But our faith is mystical and transcendent.
We could loose the Vatican to a terrorist attack or earthquake, but our faith resides in Christ Himself.
People say, oh, the Church owns alot of property and alot of money and has alot of power. You ask any cleric if he is rich and has alot of power…wait and see…The cleric renounces all for the kingdom of Christ. They move from property to property on assignments. They live such busy lives that by the end of the day they want only prayer and solitude.
I know of religious orders where the priests sleep on the floor with only a pillow and a covering…it is said John Paul II slept that way before he became the Holy Father.
So you can’t judge a book by its cover…
And Catholic priests themselves make among the lowest income…last I heard it was about $200 a month; their relatives will give them money…and they use it to take people out to eat or give away. Theirs is a life of detachment.
Nobody owns the Vatican, nobody owns or possesses a diocese…these are simply outward edifices that represent glory to Christ…the famous paintings, sculpture, etc., were provided to give glory to Christ…through which the universe was made.
I don’t ever look at the Vatican as property but representing the universality of faith; its riches are glory to Christ and they belong to no one.
The Vatican is the property and state of the Catholic Church. Now look up documents and try to find out who holds the dough.
Not the Pope, not the cardinals…not the bishops…there is not one single Catholic who owns the Vatican.
The Catholic Church is comprised of all believers…so in one sense, we all ‘own’ the Vatican by the profession of our faith. But our faith is mystical and transcendent.
We could loose the Vatican to a terrorist attack or earthquake, but our faith resides in Christ Himself.
People say, oh, the Church owns alot of property and alot of money and has alot of power. You ask any cleric if he is rich and has alot of power…wait and see…The cleric renounces all for the kingdom of Christ. They move from property to property on assignments. They live such busy lives that by the end of the day they want only prayer and solitude.
I know of religious orders where the priests sleep on the floor with only a pillow and a covering…it is said John Paul II slept that way before he became the Holy Father.
So you can’t judge a book by its cover…
And Catholic priests themselves make among the lowest income…last I heard it was about $200 a month; their relatives will give them money…and they use it to take people out to eat or give away. Theirs is a life of detachment.
Nobody owns the Vatican, nobody owns or possesses a diocese…these are simply outward edifices that represent glory to Christ…the famous paintings, sculpture, etc., were provided to give glory to Christ…through which the universe was made.
I don’t ever look at the Vatican as property but representing the universality of faith; its riches are glory to Christ and they belong to no one.
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4Squarebaby
Guest
generally speaking they break down into sub (core) groups depending upon the terminology that local church uses. There will be many associate pastors on staff who handle that. Certainly some will whine I want the senior pastor superstar to do my wedding that is why I attend a superstar’s church. But most will go to the satellite chapel with the associate pastor who leads their core group. After all their wedding party would not be able to fill a converted NBA stadium so why would they have Joel Osteen officiating with Israel and The New breed playing the music?
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JustaServant
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Sufjon
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Hi Petergee:
Sorry - I read your response wrong. I thought you were arguing that the bridge wasn’t bought, but your point was that not knowing what he bought was urban myth. That might be true, and I’ll take your word for it. It was early in the morning and I start off slow in the mornings and from there over the course of the day, I gradually fizzle out.
But my point was that’s it’s pretty amazing that someone would buy London Bridge and move it to Arizona. Strange things are done with money and for money.
Your friend,
Sufjon
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Annabelle_Marie
Guest
I don’t know…when we were in smaller Protestant churches I could never get any of those pastors to help me nearly as much as our one priest!
But people like Benny Hinn…they just want you to send money in for blessings…they have received their reward here on earth…I just feel like they are fleecing a lot of their flock!
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JRRTFAN
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JRRTFAN
Guest
All I’m saying, and this is from significant experience in my community, although not around the US, is that somebody who is a professed member of a Methodist church has zero issues with jumping to a PCA church. They simpy don’t. Presbyterian to Baptist, Baptist to Non-denom, Luteran to Methodist, etc. This may not be your experience but I don’t see a bastion of hard shell Methodists or Presbyterians,
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Cat
Guest
But perhaps he’s not called to do this ministry.
Everyone has been given different spiritual gifts by the Holy Spirit, and we should use those gifts that we have been given and allow everyone else to use the gifts that THEY have been given.
When we try to use a gift that we do not have, not only do we do a crummy job of it, but we deprive the person who HAS been gifted in that area of the opportunity to use their spiritual gift and participate in the building up of the Church of Jesus.
Pastor Rick Warren has been given some special spiritual gifts that enable him to have an international ministry. He must act as a good steward of these gifts, and one way he can do that is to delegate other pastor ministries to other pastors and associates so that he has time to use the gifts that the Holy Spirit has given him.
There is nothing wrong with that. No man (or woman) can do it all.
You probably know the Scripture passages that describes the spiritual gifts, but for the sake of posters who don’t know what I’m referring to, I’ll reference them: I Corinthans 12 (especially vs. 8-10), Romans 12: 6-8, Ephesians 4: 11-12, and I Peter 4: 10-11.
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Lee
Guest
what the others said is true. Plus, the pope owns none of it, has no spouse or heirs to pass it onto. It’s the property of the entire Catholic Church, unlike the pastor and his family. I dont see the Pope living in million dollar mansions and dining at all the finest restaraunts.
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Cat
Guest
But there are different kinds of pastors. And each pastor has their “specialty,” something that they are gifted in.
E.g., the first pastor that I remember was Harold Christenson (husband of Evelyn Christenson, the beloved author of What Happens When Women Pray, etc.). He was a speaker. That was his gift.
The next pastor I remember was a pastor from California who was called to our church. He was not a speaker. He was a shepherd–an outgoing, joy-filled, fun-loving guy who drew people in because he was everyone’s friend.
There were pastors who were good at administration, and knew how to balance the church budget and convince people to give more offerings.
There was one pastor who specialized in visiting shut-ins, prisoners, the poor, the widows, and anyone in need. He was so delightful, and still lives in our city and does this kind of work.
I had one pastor who was an evangelist. He was a terrible speaker and gave rambling sermons that put me and others to sleep. He was not really fond of visiting the sick or needy. He was not much of an administrator. But boy, could he lead people to Christ!
There were pastors who specialized in youth and/or children’s ministries. One of those pastors is in his 50s now, but he still does youth ministry, and he’s internationally known.
I agree that small churches need a pastor who is a jack-of-all-trades. But many churches hire several pastors to meet all the needs of the church.
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AmateurPianist
Guest
So what is the point of this thread??
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4Squarebaby
Guest
Would not the calling be to be a priest while the bishops decides who will run a church, who an orphange, a school, prison or hospital chaplan
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JRRTFAN
Guest
You are correct. I worded that improperly. They are called to be priests but the Bishop is the one who sends them. If a local parish doesn’t like its pastor it can’t “call” somebody else, like Protestant communions can.
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Cat
Guest
No, they were Protestant pastors (evangelical Protestant). I was evangelical Protestant for the first 47 years of my life.
In answer to your earlier query, these men were called by God to do the work that they do. God works in the lives of those who have been baptized–this is Catholic doctrine, which states that Baptism is the time when the Holy Spirit begins His work in that person’s life. I personally believe that God is calling all, including all Protestants, to be members of the Catholic Church, but it takes a while. We have to trust that God has a plan to call non-Catholic Christians home.
The “method” by which a Protestant pastor is called to work in a specific church varies in each denomination. In most of the evangelical Protestant denominations that I grew up in, pastors were “called” or “invited” to come to a specific church and to a specific ministry in that church (Youth pastor, Visitation pastor, Senior Pastor, Administrative Pastor, Music Pastor, etc.) by the congregation or by a Pastoral Search Committee from the congregation. In most of my churches, the congregation was given several opportunities to meet with the potential pastor and hear him speak and teach, and then all members of the congregation (not the non-members) voted Yay or Nay. In all of my churches, the vote had to be unanimous–any dissention was considered a sign that the Holy Spirit was not leading us to call that particular pastor at that time.
There are evangelical Protestant denominations where a “council” or “bishophoric” or some other denominational headship assigns pastors to a church and ministry.
Pastoral duties like weddings, funerals, and baptisms are done according to the choice of the family. My husband and I asked the pastors that we preferred to perform our wedding, and they both agreed. Families ask for the pastor that they prefer to perform the funerals of their loved ones.
Baptisms are done by pastor of choice, or in some evangelical Protestant churches, the parents will baptize their child(ren). Baptisms are generally done all at once in a big evangelical church; the date of the baptismal service is set, and all the candidates are baptized one right after another. Many evangelical Protestant churches only have a few baptismal services a year.
Remember that in evangelical Protestant churches, there are no “sacraments,” and baptism is considered the outward sign of an inward work of the Holy Spirit. It is not considered necessary for salvation. It is also done by immersion, never sprinkling or pouring, so it’s kind of a big messy deal for those getting baptized. People who have arrived at the age of reason are baptized by their own choice; babies or very young children are not baptized. A child must be capable of testifying in their own words that they have received Jesus as their Savior, and that they are choosing to be baptized because they want to follow Jesus’ examp.e and obey the Biblical commands to be baptized.
Also remember that in most evangelical Protestant churches, there is no “confirmation,” or “reconciliation”. Marriage is also not considered a sacrament–just a ceremony, another outward demonstration of an inward event (falling in love, being “called” to be married). There is anointing of the sick with oil, but anyone in the evangelical Protestant church may anoint another with oil and pray for their healing; it doesn’t have to be a pastor.
And most importantly, there is no “Eucharist” in evangelical Protestant churches. There are communion services, and these can be administered by anyone, not just a pastor. The communion is just a symbol to help us remember Jesus’ death. It is not necessary for salvation. Many evangelical Protestant churches only hold communion services a few times a year, or once a month, although the Campbellite churches (Church of Christ, Christian church, Disciples of Christ) hold a communion service at every meeting. Some evangelical Protestant churches are offering communion at every worship service, but they leave the elements in the back of the church (or somewhere in the sanctuary, which is the same as the nave), and invite Christians to partake whenever they wish.
I hope this information is helpful.
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