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phil_at_dayboro
Guest
I think you two ladies both have very good points, ,
but sorry Annie, my money is on Longing soul…
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but sorry Annie, my money is on Longing soul…
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Annie39
Guest
Well I was going to post something else here but I’ll first ask, why is your money on LS?
And now the rest:
One more thing, until recently and for over 20 years I lived in the county next to the county where one of your gangs was founded San Bernardino, CA. I grew up in Los Angeles county, CA where the Crypts and the Bloods were founded. I know about street gangs. I know that the more that you try to suppress them, the bigger and fiercer they become. There were many more articles that I could have put on this thread but I had to stop somewhere. I don’t remember if I added the url of an article that displayed all the guns that were seized in a raid. They were guns that the “bikies” as they were called had made themselves. One can confiscate guns every day all day long and the thugs will find more.
Annie
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tabycat
Guest
One little question? How many Australians versus how many Americans there are?
One other thing: I am not hiding my head in the sand nor am I trying to white wash gun violence (or any one else who is not pro-gun grabbing on this thread). One other thing, we have had a gun-grabber as presadent the past five years.
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tabycat
Guest
Rule number one of handling a gun: Do not point (or even get it out) a gun at anything, unless you are willing to use it and pull the trigger.
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tabycat
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tabycat
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phil_at_dayboro
Guest
This is one argument that will never have a final victor.
People will defend there own thoughts on the matter ,
Iv heard both sides , and both sides can come up with sensible arguments .
As iv said earlier, we live in Democracies , there’s not much you can do about gun ownership …
People will defend there own thoughts on the matter ,
Iv heard both sides , and both sides can come up with sensible arguments .
As iv said earlier, we live in Democracies , there’s not much you can do about gun ownership …
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LongingSoul
Guest
This is not a “my country is better than your country” issue. There is absolutely nothing positive to be gained in having that attitude. Many of the arguments put forward in gun control debates by US citizens are based on fear rather than facts and there arises an opportunity for outsiders to say this fear or that presumption is not entirely sound. This is the experience of societies that reject guns for defense.
Massacre stories are so regular out of the US and so often it’s children and teens going about their day to day schoolwork who are the victims in these stories. Although there are public memorials and tears each time, it seems to be an accepted part of the culture that values the right to own a gun higher than the right to life… especially the lives of the vulnerable. The gun culture machine goes into overdrive to win back the hearts of the individual rights attitude that might weaken in the face of the death of little toddlers. That’s all you ever hear then. “We cannot examine whether the gun culture is the cause of this because guns are a divine right protected by the second amendment. Their effects in the culture are irrelevant because what about ME. MY rights as and older lady. MY rights as a family man. MY rights as an INDIVIDUAL.” The rights of the vulnerable… the kids in classrooms, the homeless and marginalised, the tourists in the country, the partners and children of men with a gun and abuse tendencies. Those peoples rights to safety in a gun ridden culture are severely limited. They represent colateral damage.
It’s pointless to respond by posting stories about crime and guns in other countries because blind freddie can see the effects and attitudes nurtured in the culture by gun worship. And it is worship. The normal response to problem of gun massacres in a society would be to tone down the worship of the gun. For example, this incident that occurred when two Australian olympians posted these vanity photos on facebook before the olympics in London.
smh.com.au/olympics/swimming-london-2012/darcy-and-monk-fire-up-swimming-australia-with-gun-photo-20120607-1zyj0.html
There was talk of banning them from the Olympics but in the end they were allowed to go for their events and then flown home immediately after the events.
That to me would be a normal response in a world that dealt with the regular mass death of school and university kids in a society. That’s where the madness comes into some of the attitude. In the US there seems to be an upward swing in these gun worshipping shots after every massacre in the name of protecting my god given 2nd amendment right.
And that is the thing. I don’t want to see my children and grandchildren bequeathed a society that tolerates criminals because they are more powerful than the good. I would rather live in a state of emergency fighting back against their power, legislating where we can, mobilizing the police force against them, sentencing their crimes especially illegal gun ownership with the full might of the law. The State I live in, Queensland, is trailblazing with this attitude since last year and it is to be seen how it will all pan out across Australia. The message these criminals are being bombarded with is we don’t want you having any power whatsoever anywhere anytime.
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jmcrae
Guest
And how exactly does your gun convey you safely from place to place? So far, I have never seen any guns with wheels and passenger seats.
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tabycat
Guest
Australia and the USA have two different cultures; in fact, here in the US we have thirty or more types of cultures depending on where your family came from and the region you live-in, sometimes it depends on even the neigeborhood you live in (ie Chinatown, little Italy).
A question: If a gun totting person stops a ‘massacre’ in the US, would it be reported in Australia??? I do not think so!!!
If you think that someone who legelly owns a gun, in the US.
eek tolerates criminals, you have another think coming. 
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phil_at_dayboro
Guest
Um, Australia & the U S have the same culture, we are both populated by the U K & EuropeAustralia and the USA have two different cultures; in fact, here in the US we have thirty or more types of cultures depending on where your family came from and the region you live-in, sometimes it depends on even the neigeborhood you live in (ie Chinatown, little Italy).
A question: If a gun totting person stops a ‘massacre’ in the US, would it be reported in Australia??? I do not think so!!!
If you think that someone who legelly owns a gun, in the US.
The only major differences is the fact you had wholesale slavery & bus loads of Mexicans ,
Fortunately you had a couple of excellent presidents,and a couple hundred years head start., so I guess you should be in front on several issues, but are you ?
Which 30 cultures are you talking about ? Perhaps 30 American Indian tribes ?
Well, you got us there,
If a gun trotting person stops a massacre would that be reported here, ?
I think it would, , if U S sink holes & misunderstood brown bears get coverage here,
Then yes we would hear about it,
And your last comment, if a man mistakenly shoots his son , thinking he was a burglar ,
A criminal breaking into his neighbours house… Well, I guess you can claim your second amendment, tell that to the boys mother,
Like I’v said several times, there are no real winners to this argument,
Fortunately for everyone in the free world, we have some form of democracy & free speech ,
We can thank men and women who laid down there lives for us that we have this great privilege ,
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Annie39
Guest
You write: It’s pointless to respond by posting stories about crime and guns in other countries
I was not asking you to respond to postings of stories about crime and guns in other countries I posted about the high crime rate in YOUR country.
You do not address the facts not made up stories about the crime in your country. Your country is as violent as mine and those facts prove it. You just refuse to see it. It is true that when guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns. Do you know how over the top emotional you appear when you post insulting foolishness terms like gun worship? You seem to be upset that I as an older woman would like the right to defend myself against someone who was attempting to do me harm. You seem to think that I should just shut up about the fact that someone wants to take my means of self-protection when all the bad guys still have theirs. Only in your dreams
My son is in the security business. He will go to a place of business or a school and recommend the kind of security they should have and then if that business or school accepts his bid a crew will install the security. He would like to recommend armed security but it is impossible in most places. Some schools in this state do have one or two officers assigned to them but not many. He also believes that teachers and office workers who would like to conceal carry to be allowed to do so. You keep emotionally talking about the children who were killed. He is the father of a boy the same age as the children who were killed at Sandy Hook and he wishes that there was protection for them on campus. Those brave teachers tried to protect their students but did so by covering their bodies with their own. You see, they were not allowed to carry the only thing that would have stopped the killer. He was hired by a company in Australia a year or so ago to recommend the best way to handle their security. He is very good at this.
One of the murderers, I think at Virginia Tec could not buy a gun so he bought parts of guns (I think on the internet) and built one from those parts just like the gang bangers are doing in your country.
You write “I don’t want to see my children and grandchildren bequeathed a society that tolerates criminals because they are more powerful than the good.”
And yet that is just what your country is doing. On what planet do you live where you have been told that we are not attempting to deal with our gang problem? Queensland is trying to deal with it’s out of control gang problem. How’s that working out for you? You don’t have to tell me I already know (not so very well).
Annie
I was not asking you to respond to postings of stories about crime and guns in other countries I posted about the high crime rate in YOUR country.
You do not address the facts not made up stories about the crime in your country. Your country is as violent as mine and those facts prove it. You just refuse to see it. It is true that when guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns. Do you know how over the top emotional you appear when you post insulting foolishness terms like gun worship? You seem to be upset that I as an older woman would like the right to defend myself against someone who was attempting to do me harm. You seem to think that I should just shut up about the fact that someone wants to take my means of self-protection when all the bad guys still have theirs. Only in your dreams
My son is in the security business. He will go to a place of business or a school and recommend the kind of security they should have and then if that business or school accepts his bid a crew will install the security. He would like to recommend armed security but it is impossible in most places. Some schools in this state do have one or two officers assigned to them but not many. He also believes that teachers and office workers who would like to conceal carry to be allowed to do so. You keep emotionally talking about the children who were killed. He is the father of a boy the same age as the children who were killed at Sandy Hook and he wishes that there was protection for them on campus. Those brave teachers tried to protect their students but did so by covering their bodies with their own. You see, they were not allowed to carry the only thing that would have stopped the killer. He was hired by a company in Australia a year or so ago to recommend the best way to handle their security. He is very good at this.
One of the murderers, I think at Virginia Tec could not buy a gun so he bought parts of guns (I think on the internet) and built one from those parts just like the gang bangers are doing in your country.
You write “I don’t want to see my children and grandchildren bequeathed a society that tolerates criminals because they are more powerful than the good.”
And yet that is just what your country is doing. On what planet do you live where you have been told that we are not attempting to deal with our gang problem? Queensland is trying to deal with it’s out of control gang problem. How’s that working out for you? You don’t have to tell me I already know (not so very well).
Annie
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Annie39
Guest
You are correct to a degree Phil but tabbycat is also correct in part. I’m not sure that I would number the different cultures at 30. We have been called a melting pot but we are more like a salad made up of many different cultures. The overriding culture is as you say basically European. However, underneath this culture are other cultures. Many people of Mexican descent are warmer and more family oriented. If a person from another background like me (Irish) is found to be a friend of one of their members, that person is warmly accepted almost like family. This does not happen a lot in the Anglo-American culture. In the northern states there are many people from Holland, Germany and cold places like that. Their culture reflects their motherland and someone I knew from Norway would feel more at home there than me. If you go down south you’ll likely find descendents of the Scots-Irish with their own type of culture. There are even some duck dynasty type folks there. I’m sure that there is more but that will give you an idea. I think that the indigenous Australians might differ with you about only one culture in AU.
Annie
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freeRadical
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How does a car convey you safely from place to place?And how exactly does your gun convey you safely from place to place? So far, I have never seen any guns with wheels and passenger seats.
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freeRadical
Guest
I’m not renouncing data. I’m simply pointing out that you are inferring a casual relationship from a correlation. You cannot do that. That is bad science. I do not understand what probability has to do with trying to establish a casual relationship between variables.By renouncing all correctional data, you’re inadvertently rejecting much of science, including quantum mechanics. If you were a bookie, would you not calculate the odds?
LOVE!
Let’s look at an example of why you cannot infer a casual relationship from a correlation. There is a positive correlation between kids that sit inside and play video games and obesity. Does that mean that sitting inside playing video games cause obesity? Of course not! If we banned kids from sitting inside playing video games would that lower the rate of obesity among children in the US? Maybe, maybe not. It probably would not have any impact because sitting inside playing video games is not a cause of obesity. Yet you are doing the same thing with guns. It is bad science plain and simple and all it does is show that you do not understand statistical analysis.
The point it moot thought. The only way you could ever ban guns in the US is by repealing the Second Amendment. Good luck with that.
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tabycat
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:tiphat::tiphat::tiphat:
Also, I doubt very much that non-shooting would get reported in more then a few, local spots and not overseas.
I wonder how a parent would feel if he/she runs over their child with a car. Or maybe they should feel happy because their child is dead because of a car and not a gun.
OBTW, I am glad we broke from England, the ones who tried to kill off the Celtic Irish because the Irish were (and are) Catholic.
Tell somebody from the South that they have the same culture as someone from New York, you may, if you are lucky, just called a ‘d*** Yankee’. When I say culture there is a diffent cultires in, say, Chinatown (SF) and Spainish Harlam (New York). As far the Indian tribes, we most likly have more then a hunderd here, I very much doubt that a Navejo take kindly to be called a Hopi, or telling a Black that his culture is the same as a member of local skin heads.
Also, I doubt very much that non-shooting would get reported in more then a few, local spots and not overseas.I wonder how a parent would feel if he/she runs over their child with a car. Or maybe they should feel happy because their child is dead because of a car and not a gun.
OBTW, I am glad we broke from England, the ones who tried to kill off the Celtic Irish because the Irish were (and are) Catholic.
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Robert_Sock
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The notion that correlations do not prove causality is usually true, but you can infer causality if you control for all confounding constructs. Again, quantum mechanics is based on probabilities. Moreover, all statistics are based on probabilities.
probabilˈity noun (pl probabilˈities)
The quality of being probable, likelihood
The appearance of truth
That which is probable
**The chance or likelihood of something happening
**
A measure of the likelihood of something occurring, expressed as a ratio of positive cases to total potential cases
Why would you need to prove causality in order to establish likely hood? Most of pubic polices are based on survey data, such as ones I presented.
Can you please provide a source for your contentions?
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tabycat
Guest
I wish I could put things as well as you. Maybe I’m a dreamer thinking that I might change some posters.
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LongingSoul
Guest
You guys like to hold on to stuff don’t you. You know that was a while back right?
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freeRadical
Guest
You cannot infer causality from correlation period. I don’t care about statistics. I care about establishing relationships between variables base on reliable data and sound data analysis techniques. Why do you keep bringing up quantum mechanics? It has nothing to do with what we are talking about.
No, you do not need to prove causality in order to establish likelihood. But that is not what you are doing. You are presenting correlation data and then trying to establish an if-then relationship.
Here is what you are doing:
The data shows that there is a positive correlation between having access to a gun in a home and the number of homicides, suicides, and accidental shootings in the home. Therefore, if we ban guns, then the number of homicides, suicides, and accidental shootings in the home will decrease. However, you have no evidence that is true. If-then statements are casual relationships.
I posted earlier that there is a correlation between kids sitting inside playing video games and obesity and that banning kids from sitting inside playing video games would not have an impact on childhood obesity because it is not a cause of obesity.
You have no proof that guns are the reason that there are homicides, suicides, and accidental shootings in the home. There could be other variables that you are not considering. I have had guns in my house since I was a kid and yet there has not been a homicide, suicide, or accidental shooting in my home. How do you explain that? Could it be that my father taught me how to handle a gun safely and treat it with respect at a young age? Could it be that my parents instilled values in me? Could it be that my parents taught me to value life? Could it be that I was raised in a Catholic household?
And by the way, most public policy is not based on survey data, it is based on the analysis of that data by stringent data analysis method and models, trying to determine what is statistically significant and what is not, what explains the relationships between different variables, etc.
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