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Brendan
Guest
Having been an Army Officer, what training in legalities of ‘shoot only to kill’ and mandatory stress response are you talking about?
The only mandatory stress response I remember was my OCS drill instructor screaming three inches from my face.
And no, I wasn’t allowed to shoot him.That, and the stress of having to get all the fitrep paperwork done and submitted before the Colonel chewed out my rear end.
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Robert_Sock
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The article is a review of several studies/analyses. Some used one type of control, others used different controls.
LOVE!
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LongingSoul
Guest
Someone earlier said that you are trained to ‘shoot to kill’ in the US services? Surely you have the type of psychological and personality testing that determines more than technical skill? Those tests begin at the first round of applications for the police and defense services here. Trustworthiness Moral judgement Internal locus of control Empathy Integrity Tolerance Responsibility Conformity Self-control Flexibility Objectivity Conscientiousness. These are all things that are important.Having been an Army Officer, what training in legalities of ‘shoot only to kill’ and mandatory stress response are you talking about?
The only mandatory stress response I remember was my OCS drill instructor screaming three inches from my face.
That, and the stress of having to get all the fitrep paperwork done and submitted before the Colonel chewed out my rear end.
When using a firearm to kill, do private citizens meet the same standards of character that make their decision truly necessary and blameless? It’s the business of taking a life that has to be treated with due caution and restrictions to respect the dignity of the human person.
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Brendan
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No, what was said that we are not trained to ‘shoot to wound’, and neither are the police.
What we ARE trained for in Infantry combat is to shoot at center mass (person chest\stomach area) until the threat stops. If the person survives after the area is secure you provide medical assistance. the goal is stop the threat by the quickest, most efficient means possible.
Interestingly enough, CPL holders are taught the exact same thing. Shoot for center mass and keep firing until you feel the threat is ended. That is what the Army does, that is what the police do and that is what CPL holders are trained for as well.
yes, and your average US solider or Marine, by definition meets those. As does the vast majority of the public.
Take average guy just out of high school, run them through 10 weeks of jogging, climbing, marching and yes, time at the shooting range, with a D.I. yelling at them all the way. Them give them an M-16 Rifle.
Your average civilian can do the same, but has no need to be tested climbing over 4 meter walls and crawling under barbed wire in the mud.
And the pistol qualification for CPL was not that different for what I did as an Officer every 5 years, except that as a CPL holder , I have to do it every three.
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Ridgerunner
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This is the Ozarks, southwest Missouri. You’re quite welcome to move here.I wish more of California was like your area.
Interestingly, a fair number of Californians do. They can sell their house in California for all the money in the world and buy one like it here for less than half as much. Or at least they once could.It does get cold in the winter, though.
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tabycat
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tabycat
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One thing to remember before comparing the US and other countries: that is the US is more like a collection of countries then just one homogences country.
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Zoltan_Cobalt
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Political Rights Not God given Rights.
Political rights are granted by a government. Those rights can be expanded or suspended as a government sees fit. “Legitimate and proportionate reasons” can be a bureaucrat’s whim.
A God given right is the sanction of independent action. It can be exercised without anyone’s permission.
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LongingSoul
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What? No way! To own guns for private self defense is a God given right that can never be taken away under any circumstance ever?? That is insane! Why does on the US know this? Are the rest of the world heathens?
The Catechism says…
2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. **For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority **also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.
This specifically addresses a *civil duty *and *civil right *for the purpose of the common good. Not private self defense.
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Gary_Sheldrake
Guest
Good Evening Lost Sheep: This line of thinking makes no sense to me. Yes, he could have used any number of household items, such as a kitchen knife, a toy truck, a thermos bottle, a baseball bat and countless other things. The difference is that all of these things have useful purposes that don’t involve killing things. Another point to consider is that a gun is much more efficient and effective at killing people than any of these items. Also, a gun has no useful purpose outside of killing and maiming. Yes, you may use it for target practice or a paper weight if you like, but we all know what it’s really made for. Aside from all that, if you do have things in your house that could be improvised to kill people, why add a device to the mix that is actually made for killing people? Does that help your odds? If you have a drinking problem, should you pick up smoking for good measure?
Thanks,
Gary
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Gary_Sheldrake
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No, but you can be smart. The best way to avoid getting hurt is not preparing for the moment of encounter. It’s avoiding the encounter.You can avoid people, places and situations that breed violence. You can buy good deadbolts for your house and alarms systems. You can avoid places where criminals frequent. Such things dramatically decrease your chances of getting killed by a criminal. As I stated earlier in the thread, I have spent many hours one on one interviewing violent criminals. I understand their patterns of behavior and I know how to avoid them. If you come face to face with one outside of a controlled environment or find yourself in their habitat, eye contact is important. Remember, people are higher primates and much of our behavior is similar to other primates. Violent people seem to have a more intimate and living connection with our primordial past, so the way you make eye contact is important. If you look and act like a victim, then you are looking and acting like precisely what they’re looking for. They will happily accommodate you. These are some ways to avoid the criminal element.
But the criminal element is not likely what’s going to get us killed, and as I have said before, most people get killed by someone they know. So we should also consider how not to know people who are inclined to make you a victim. They’re easy to spot, and you should be able to get a read on them within one of two lunch engagements. Such people see themselves as victims, and they’ll be telling you about it right off the bat - first or second conversation. They’ll tell you how their ex-wife takes too much alimony. They’ll tell you how their ex-husband doesn’t pay enough alimony. They’ll tell you how they’ve been cheated out of custody rights, or how their employers abuse them or how a particular teacher is unfair. Now, a lot of people have some of these problems, but the way to spot a person who is going to be problem is that they’ll tell you about it **a lot. ** It’ll come up frequently. They have identified the villains in their lives and they seldom take any responsibility for their situations. It’s always someone else’s fault. They feel victimized and fear being victimized even more. Their problems are thematic and very patterned. You don’t need friends like this. A life with them is a life of trouble, and if they don’t hurt you, one day you’ll probably be on the villain list and they’ll be telling someone about you at lunch, because they’re always the victim. Most of these people will never hurt you or me, but for the few who will, this is the usually training camp they come from.
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LongingSoul
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Adding to this issue, the Universal Declaration of Human Right, Article 3 -
“Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.”
Now the American **public authorities **(which the founders were) said that in serving this right, Americans have the civil right to bear arms in self defense. This, self defense, is the universal principle which you claim affords private guns ‘God-given’. However, you limit this right only to American citizens in America. Tourists and other internationals entering your country are not afforded this God-given right to self defense because they are not American citizens. Does that mean that this God-given human right only considers American citizens human? Are internationals in the States rendered inhuman because they aren’t American? If the right to self defense is universal and justifies bearing a weapon… how do you justify prohibiting it travellers inside your borders? Do you believe that internationals have some other qualities or protections that make them equally safe to armed Americans inside American society. Chris Lane would disagree, but how is that God-given right morally denied to internationals facing the same threats as residents?
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Brendan
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Correct, but it’s not an either\or, but a both\and.
A classic example is avoid car accidents. The best method is clearly to be a careful driver. But that does not mean that you should not wear a seat belt, for those situations that you could not foresee.
A truly safe driver is one who both avoids the accidents, but nonetheless, takes precautions for the accidents do happen.
Likewise a safe person is one who avoids potentially violent situations, but is likewise prepared to handle it when unforeseen or unavoidable situations happen.
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Brendan
Guest
I have several firearms who serve the useful purpose of breaking flying clay plates and punching holes in paper at 200m.
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Deus_tecum
Guest
You make it abundantly clear that you believe you have learned a method of staying out of danger, and that you feel you do not want or need a gun. That’s great for you. I recommend for you the following steps.
- Never own, possess, or use a gun.
- Mind your business in regard to other peoples’ choices for defense.
*]Never own, possess, or use a gun.
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Gary_Sheldrake
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Good Morning Deus Tecum: To the former, I do not own, or use a gun. To the latter, as a modern human, I am interested in promoting behaviors that advance the cause of the development of our species, such as education, research, spiritual growth, science and human and social services. Likewise, I am interested in eliminating investment of human energy into enterprises that destroy life and act as enablers in the preservation of violent and destructive habits that have proven over time to do nothing more than cause misery and death. Make no mistake, this discourse taking place about guns in our communities is nothing short of an evolutionary intelligence test, and I am simply pointing this out to those who I think are failing. My challenge to you and to gun owners is to ask what you plan to do to either bring your grade up, or come up with some compelling argument as to why you are doing anything but wasting civilizations time with these arguments and endangering others with toys you don’t need. What is the productive or useful outcome in the long range for humanity in the trafficking of tools that damage or destroy life? These are simple and honest questions. What is the enterprise in making violence and devices that kill people part of our collective experience?
Thank you,
Gary
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Gary_Sheldrake
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Well, that’s fascinating Brendan. Thank you for sharing.
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Brendan
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Yep, those are all useful purposes that don’t involve killing things.
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Deus_tecum
Guest
The answer to your questions is “None of your business.” You are condescending to people in your replies, and there is no point in discussing issues with someone who feels they know everything, and cannot discuss issues without being condescending. God bless you.
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