10 Pro-Gun Myths, Shot Down

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Robert_Sock said:
Hi Brendan!

No, we still need to weigh the pros and cons. We can see from the data you provided that having a gun can prevent a potentially violent crime, but gun owners need to be aware that gun ownership can cause homicide, suicide and accidental shooting within the household.

LOVE! ❤️
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I agree, that is what we are weighing. And it looks like the weight is in favor of gun ownership
 
Zoltan_Cobalt said:
Yes, Robert. It is an OBVIOUS conspiracy on the part of Mother Jones.

Typical liberal anti-gun, anti-American tripe.
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I think that labelling liberalism as being anti-American is rather near sighted. Thomas Jefferson, George Mason and Abe Lincoln were considered liberals in their time, and by today’s standards, so would Eisenhower, Nixon and Regan. The term is relative. In addition to that, a lot of liberals have died in the service of their countries (America included), including several members of my own family. The point at which we quell public discourse by labelling those with opinions other than our own as being un-American, well, that’s when we’re actually being un-American. You don’t have to subscribe to a conservative or liberal agenda to be an American, and you don’t have to be an American to be counted as human and enjoy fully equal consideration. Barriers and people who create them have been the cause of a good deal of misery in this world, and if we see things in the light of everything being “us vs them” then conflict is simply a very predictable outcome.
 
ARSpade said:
You also must include the fact that the UK (and many other places) also game their numbers to make their countries look safer.

In the US if there’s a dead body and it didn’t get dead by natural causes or suicide then it’s recorded as a “homicide” in the FBI stats.

Since 1967 the UK doesn’t consider a dead body to equal a homicide unless somebody actually gets convicted of homicide. Unless you’re looking at firearms related homicides, then you get the “real” number.
From a Parliment report:
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Based on this, I did some number checking.

The murder rate per 100,000 people in the UK is 1.2

The murder rate per 100,000 people in the United States is 4.8

-This makes the murder rate in the US 400 percent higher than that of the UK, fully adjusted for population.

-The British Government estimates that the manner in which they calculate homicides reduces the homicide numbers by 15%.

-That still makes the homicide rate in the US about 300% higher than the UK.
 
Gary_Sheldrake said:
I think that labelling liberalism as being anti-American is rather near sighted. Thomas Jefferson, George Mason and Abe Lincoln were considered liberals in their time, and by today’s standards, so would Eisenhower, Nixon and Regan. The term is relative. In addition to that, a lot of liberals have died in the service of their countries (America included), including several members of my own family. The point at which we quell public discourse by labelling those with opinions other than our own as being un-American, well, that’s when we’re actually being un-American. You don’t have to subscribe to a conservative or liberal agenda to be an American, and you don’t have to be an American to be counted as human and enjoy fully equal consideration. Barriers and people who create them have been the cause of a good deal of misery in this world, and if we see things in the light of everything being “us vs them” then conflict is simply a very predictable outcome.
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That is true. There are no inherent liberal or conservative markers in the gun rights arguments. In Australia, it is the conservatives who are most pro gun control and a right wing conservative government that implemented the 1996 strict controls.

It is a cultural thing like the slave ownership arguments of the 19th century that appeared to be a conservative position. True conservatism promotes the strong helping the weak become strong, not the strong using the weak to better their own conditions. That is what the discriminatory gun ownership rights promote.
 
With all of the posting of the US verses other countries, how about comparing different parts of the US? There is a city that you can not legelly buy a gun in the city limits, but has one of the highest crime rates in the country, namly Chicigo. :eek:
 
tabycat said:
With all of the posting of the US verses other countries, how about comparing different parts of the US? There is a city that you can not legelly buy a gun in the city limits, but has one of the highest crime rates in the country, namly Chicigo. :eek:
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The South and Midwest have the most guns per capita, while the Northeast has the fewest. The South and Midwest have significantly higher death rates per capita by assault than the northeast. The three states with the highest number of guns per capita have the three highest death rates per capita by assault . The three states with the lowest gun ownership have the lowest death rates per capita by assault . The trend tracks almost evenly in the same manner for all the states in between - the more guns, the more deaths per capita by assault. If you pull up the actual studies, you can view the stats by state.

-Source: Gallup and Center for Disease Control.

Some additional stats on the US:

-Most murders in America are committed with guns:

-Blunt objects: 4%

-Personal weapons: 6%

-Other: 9%

-Knives: 13%

-Guns: 68%

Source: FBI
 
Okay, here is my last post on this topic barring anything compelling arises.
Last summer (for we in the US) I started a thread to discuss gun control issues with LS or others if they chose to chime in. Appropriately enough it was called “On gun control for LongingSoul and others” it becomes most interesting as far as I’m concerned beginning at #10.
LS, it seems chooses to ignore these stats. I have copied some of them below.
Below are the statistics to which I referred the url is included for you to be able to read it in context and see the references.

“Moreover, Australia and America both experienced similar decreases in murder rates: Between 1995 and 2007, Australia saw a 31.9% decrease; without a gun ban, America’s rate dropped 31.7%.
Now for the rest of the story

During the same time period, all other violent crime indices increased in Australia: assault rose 49.2% and robbery 6.2%. Sexual assault–Australia’s equivalent term for rape–increased 29.9%. Overall, Australia’s violent crime rate rose 42.2%. At the same time, U.S. violent crime decreased 31.8%: rape dropped 19.2%; robbery decreased 33.2%; aggravated assault dropped 32.2%. Australian women are now raped over three times as often as American women (whom ABC reports are arming themselves at record rates because of safety concerns): More women, from soccer moms to professionals like the ones at the Blue Ridge Arsenal gun range in Chantilly, Va., are packing heatfor sport, self-empowerment and protection.

While this doesn’t prove that more guns would impact crime rates, it does prove that gun control is a flawed policy. Moreover, for groups like Peace Movement Aotearoa, it’s apparently social justice when more people are raped, robbed, and assaulted, as long as they cannot defend themselves with firearms. This highlights the most important point: Gun banners promote failed policy irregardless of the consequences to the people who must live with them.”
freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2225517/posts
couriermail.com.au/news/q…-1226494729396

ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=17847
Some shootings in Australia

abc.net.au/news/2012-01-1…-spree/3772244

abc.net.au/news/2012-01-1…ot-out/3766842

abc.net.au/news/2012-01-1…ngs-am/3768744

abc.net.au/news/2012-01-1…sydney/3770476

J’ai fini Annie
 
Gary_Sheldrake said:
Based on this, I did some number checking.

The murder rate per 100,000 people in the UK is 1.2

The murder rate per 100,000 people in the United States is 4.8

-This makes the murder rate in the US 400 percent higher than that of the UK, fully adjusted for population.

-The British Government estimates that the manner in which they calculate homicides reduces the homicide numbers by 15%.

-That still makes the homicide rate in the US about 300% higher than the UK.
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But which is growing and which is declining…???
 
Gary_Sheldrake said:
I think that labelling liberalism as being anti-American is rather near sighted. Thomas Jefferson, George Mason and Abe Lincoln were considered liberals in their time, and by today’s standards, so would Eisenhower, Nixon and Regan. The term is relative. In addition to that, a lot of liberals have died in the service of their countries (America included), including several members of my own family. The point at which we quell public discourse by labelling those with opinions other than our own as being un-American, well, that’s when we’re actually being un-American. You don’t have to subscribe to a conservative or liberal agenda to be an American, and you don’t have to be an American to be counted as human and enjoy fully equal consideration. Barriers and people who create them have been the cause of a good deal of misery in this world, and if we see things in the light of everything being “us vs them” then conflict is simply a very predictable outcome.
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Intelligence can work for one or against one.

If one commits oneself to the truth, the smarter you are, the better.

But, however, if one commits oneself to a radically false and perverted worldview (e.g. secular humanism), the smarter you are, the stupider you become.

That’s because you engage in incredibly sophisticated rationalizations for why the thing you WANT to believe is true. You end up with these massive rationalizations that require groupthink to buy into.

In a weird way, your liberal intellectual elite hate the real empirical world; you want to be gods over the abstract theoretical worlds that you create.

And liberals love Utopias, such as what Karl Marx offered.
 
Zoltan_Cobalt said:
But which is growing and which is declining…???
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Good Evening Zoltan Cobalt: I don’t have numbers on that, but I imagine you have to do a lot of declining to make up for a 300 percent gap in stats among large populations. There usually as to be a number of years in a decline or increase to show a trend though. Japan is conspicuously absent of violent crime, but what all of these numbers don’t take into account are such things as poverty and education as well as other factors. Mexico for instance. It’s one of the few countries on par with the US in such statistics. But Mexico is in a life or death struggle with drug cartels and has very high poverty rates. Among affluent educated countries, the US is a conspicuous outlier in violent crime rates. What makes me curious is why we look more like Mexico and other troubled countries than other developed affluent nations in violent crime rates. I don’t know that guns are the whole answer, but I’m very curious about it.
 
Zoltan_Cobalt said:
Intelligence can work for one or against one.

If one commits oneself to the truth, the smarter you are, the better.

But, however, if one commits oneself to a radically false and perverted worldview (e.g. secular humanism), the smarter you are, the stupider you become.

That’s because you engage in incredibly sophisticated rationalizations for why the thing you WANT to believe is true. You end up with these massive rationalizations that require groupthink to buy into.

In a weird way, your liberal intellectual elite hate the real empirical world; you want to be gods over the abstract theoretical worlds that you create.

And liberals love Utopias, such as what Karl Marx offered.
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I hate to be intellectual with you since you don’t seem to like intellectuals, but actually Utopia was Sir Thomas More’s idea, not Karl Marx. It was a term he coined in a paper he wrote about an ideal society. He wasn’t considered a liberal, rather, he was more of a hard line traditionalist. Dislike for intellectuals, however, was rather a National Socialist trait if my memory serves me.
 
When a legally armed civilian engages an armed shooter with deadly force the average body count is 1.7. (This number includes the criminal who needed to be stopped.)

One the other hand when people hide and wait for police to respond to an armed shooter the average body count is 22.3.

The take away is this: Good people with guns stop bad people with guns. Waiting for the police unnecessarily causes a huge number of deaths to innocent people.

As Catholics the death of innocent people is kind of a huge matter…remember Jesus Christ?..he was innocent too!

Allowing anybody to be slaughtered by mad men (or women) is inconsistent with Catholic teaching.

I am Pro Life! Pro-Gun! and CATHOLIC to the core!
 
nmartiau said:
When a legally armed civilian engages an armed shooter with deadly force the average body count is 1.7. (This number includes the criminal who needed to be stopped.)

One the other hand when people hide and wait for police to respond to an armed shooter the average body count is 22.3.

The take away is this: Good people with guns stop bad people with guns. Waiting for the police unnecessarily causes a huge number of deaths to innocent people.

As Catholics the death of innocent people is kind of a huge matter…remember Jesus Christ?..he was innocent too!

Allowing anybody to be slaughtered by mad men (or women) is inconsistent with Catholic teaching.

I am Pro Life! Pro-Gun! and CATHOLIC to the core!
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Good Evening nmartiau:

-Yes, I do remember Jesus Christ, but I admittedly was unaware that he was widely known for the weapons He owned or that He was broadly considered to be a gun or weapons advocate.

-As for being Pro Life and Pro gun, I find the confluence of the two to be somewhat counterintuitive, however, I am open to hearing the reasoning that points to a resonance between the two.

-As for the statistics you posted, I am unable to find the data on that, however, the instances of armed responses among civilians would be statistically low enough to be problematic in establishing a viable trend I would think. Can you furnish the source as well as the sample size on that data? No law enforcement agency that I am aware of (including Homeland Security) encourages or suggests a shoot out as a response to an armed shooter.

Thank You,
Gary
 
Gary_Sheldrake said:
Good Evening nmartiau:

-Yes, I do remember Jesus Christ, but I admittedly was unaware that he was widely known for the weapons He owned or that He was broadly considered to be a gun or weapons advocate.

-As for being Pro Life and Pro gun, I find the confluence of the two to be somewhat counterintuitive, however, I am open to hearing the reasoning that points to a resonance between the two.

-As for the statistics you posted, I am unable to find the data on that, however, the instances of armed responses among civilians would be statistically low enough to be problematic in establishing a viable trend I would think. Can you furnish the source as well as the sample size on that data? No law enforcement agency that I am aware of (including Homeland Security) encourages or suggests a shoot out as a response to an armed shooter.

Thank You,
Gary
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Mall Shooter kills 2 sees a person pull a gun on him … and the next shot heard is the one that the shooter used to take his own life …

We will never know with certainty if Nick Meli had not been present in the Clackamas Town Center Mall on December 11th, 2012 and pulled his gun on Jacob Roberts - shooter - if more victims would have died … but the fact is - even though he did not shoot [due to not having a clear shot] - the Roberts saw himself in Meli’s sights and his next shot was himself - no additional victims were injured - no innocents were injured by Meli - neither Meli did not injure himself … or the shooter - Roberts … But it seems as Meli had an impact …

Police and even mall security were not the first ones to confront this murderous coward …A person with a conceal carry permit was … and the Mall is signed as a gun free zone … gun free zones [Malls, Theaters and Schools] are targets that advertise - murderous crazies - you shooting gallery awaits IMHO

kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html

policymic.com/articles/20891/oregon-gun-owner-stops-clackamas-shooting-spree-proving-guns-save-lives
 
Gary_Sheldrake said:
I hate to be intellectual with you since you don’t seem to like intellectuals, but actually Utopia was Sir Thomas More’s idea, not Karl Marx. It was a term he coined in a paper he wrote about an ideal society. He wasn’t considered a liberal, rather, he was more of a hard line traditionalist. Dislike for intellectuals, however, was rather a National Socialist trait if my memory serves me.
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Good evening Gary:

I don’t mind you being “intellectual” with me…I’m a bit of an intellectual myself…I just don’t flaunt it.

Interesting that you bring up Thomas More’s idea of Utopia in relationship to Marx. After reading Utopia I and II by More (a long time ago) I was struck by how much More’s “Fantasy Island” related to communism. Maybe Marx read those books also…(?) Could it be that we have Thomas More’s fiction to thank for the scourge of socialism that leads to the fear of intellectuals? My oh my what webs we spin…
 
Gary_Sheldrake said:
Good Evening Zoltan Cobalt: I don’t have numbers on that, but I imagine you have to do a lot of declining to make up for a 300 percent gap in stats among large populations.
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Good evening Gary:

Any gap, 300% or whatever, is meaningless unless it points to a positive or negative that will allow authority to make objective decisions.

The FACT is that the violent crime rate including homicide is DECREASING in the U.S. while gun ownership is INCREASING; violent crime is INCREASING in England, Canada and Australia while their governments focus on disarming the law abiding public.

It really should not take an intellectual rocket scientist to agree that maybe England, Canada and Australia are doing something wrong and the U.S. is on the right track.
Gary_Sheldrake said:
I don’t know that guns are the whole answer, but I’m very curious about it.
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Guns are not the answer. Guns are weapons. The answer is peace and love and flowers. Brotherhood and prosperity for all, the end of world hunger and pollution…perhaps a Thomas More Utopia…🙂

While you and Hytholday go about setting up Utopia, I’ll just keep my old “six-shooter” handy, just in case…please let me know when you are finished so I can turn it in.
 
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