10 reasons why Jesus is not God

[VeritasLuxMea]

Hmmm. If you believe in the Catholic Church, you might want to reconsider…although your religion isn’t listed.

If you can point me to a Church document which states that the gospel authors agreed about the elements of the faith and that there weren’t varying early Christian traditions and Christologies (such as adoptionism) then I will formally reject the Catholic Church and renounce my baptism because as far as I’m concerned: I accept the Church because of the truth, not the other way around!

I’m confident that you cannot find such a thing.

 

[jerry_joseph]

**St John Damacene , who was an administrator in the court of ummayid caliph wrote about the reality regarding islam in his book " Regarding Heretics". St John Damacene is ordained as Doctor of the church by Pope Leo XIII.
**
St John of Damasene (Known in Arabic Yahya ibin Mansur ibin Sarjun), Who was brought up and educated by the ummayid caliph in his court… John’s father Ibin Mansur was also an administrator and representative of christians in the court of caliph. Later the death of ibin mansur , John worked as administrator

. He mentions in his book" regarding heretics", he mentions that islam is not a correct teaching. He mentions that prophet Mohammed was under the guidance of an Arian Monk. But he did not mentions the name of that Arian Monk in his book.If we closely analyse the muslim teachings , we can find that muslims point of view of jesus is similar with Arian beliefs originated in Thrid Century.

orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.aspx

fathersofthechurch.com/20…scus-on-islam/

bombaxo.com/blog/?p=210

Christian scholars like theophanus (lived at the same period of mohammed) points out that the Arian monk was Sergius Bahira.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahira

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Let’s be careful linking to sites that might be harmful to our computers guys

 

[Tridentinum]

Does not the Gospel of John Chapter 1 prove that Jesus was God?

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made.

4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7 This man came for a witness, to give testimony of the light, that all men might believe through him.

8 He was not the light, but was to give testimony of the light.

9 That was the true light, which enlighteneth every man that cometh into this world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name.

13 Who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 **And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.**

 

[arabic_catholic]

Does not the Gospel of John Chapter 1 prove that Jesus was God?

don’t be innocent when you talk with muslims, they are not serious when they quote the bible ,or when they ask you question about Jesus , all what they want is to put you in confusion , so you can buy what they will offer you ! This is the whole tactic

 

[rbarcia]

On the other hand, in Mark 10:18, Jesus says,
“And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.”

(shivers the NASB translation is brutal.)

In any event, Jesus disputes the idea that he is God in this passage. Unless you want to take it out of context…

Could any of you respond to the 10 points? So far I only see 1 point addressed and there’s been multiple replies.

The young rich ruler who came too Jesus was a self righteous person who thought he was good. Jesus asked about calling Him good to bring the topic over the the righteousness of God. Jesus walked Him through the commandments of God, and the young rich ruler still thought he was righteous. Then Jesus hit him where it hurt. His wallet. (In essence proving he loved his money more than God).

Jesus whole goal was to correct the man’s notion of God’s goodness and standard of righteousness which is moral perfection.

Later on, in the same event and chapter when the rich man left, when the disciples realized the impossibility of keeping God’s standard, Jesus answered :

*25 And when the disciples heard it, they were astonished exceedingly, saying, Who then can be saved?

** 26 And Jesus looking upon them said to them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible**.

27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Lo, we have left all, and followed thee; what then shall we have?

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, that ye who have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit on the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

29 And every one that hath left houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and shall inherit eternal life.
*

Peter related Jesus statement about salvation is only possible with God, to following Jesus.

 

[15thClub]

Well…Islamic apologists can write all they want and say what they wish. Ultimately, they like us, will ULTIMATELY find out won’t they!

 

[Telstar]

Let’s be careful linking to sites that might be harmful to our computers guys

Thank you, Eric! I knew I shouldn’t have clicked on that link. I just wanted to copy what was there to be able to respond to it. Lesson learned. When I’m inspired not to do something, I should listen! Discernment really is a great gift, as long as we pay attention to it.

I couldn’t get back on CAF for the rest of the night, after my last post in this thread.

 

[jerry_joseph]

don’t be innocent when you talk with muslims, they are not serious when they quote the bible ,or when they ask you question about Jesus , all what they want is to put you in confusion , so you can buy what they will offer you ! This is the whole tactic

Yes , I know… But with mutual respect , I will give reply to them based on the light of my faith

 

[Telstar]

OK, I’m going to give this one more try, but I might have to break it up into more than one post. At least, it’s a good thing I saved the list that I had copied, in notepad.

6- Jesus could not save anyone. The Bible also claims that Jesus cannot save anyone! Here is the passage: Hebrews 5:1-8.
So Jesus cried to the one who could save him from death, this means Jesus could not save himself from death, therefore this also means Jesus cannot save anyone else from death. How can Jesus be God when he cannot save anyone? This also shows that Jesus is not in control of life and death, God however is in control of everything, including life and death: And they have taken besides Him gods, who do not create anything while they are themselves created, and they control not for themselves any harm or profit, and they control not death nor life, nor raising (the dead) to life. S. 25:3 Shakir This verse is from the Noble Quran, I guess this sums it all up doesn’t it?

This shows that the writer doesn’t understand anything about that passage in Hebrews. Nor, does he understand what the true purpose of the Messiah was, any more than some of the Jews understood it. Many of them also assumed that the Messiah would be a worldly king that would save the nation of Israel from all of it’s temporal enemies. But, Jesus (the true Messiah) came to be the pure, unspotted, Sacrificial Lamb, that would perfectly atone for the sins of all mankind. If He didn’t die by the shedding of His blood, there would be no atonement. His coming was to save our immortal souls, not our worthless temporal bodies.

Jesus said His Kingdom was “not of this world”, meaning that it was the spiritual Kingdom of God, so He had no interest in becoming a worldly ruler. Nor did He come to save anyone from suffering a mortal death. He only came to save our souls from suffering ‘eternal death’ (aka: damnation), and to open the Gates of Heaven to the righteous that would be saved by Him.

That quote from the Qur’an is totally irrelevant to the whole subject, and it’s blasphemous if it’s being applied to Jesus.

**7- Jesus’ believers did NOT believe he was God neither. **(Matthew 16:13-14)
So as we can see, the believers out of the population did not take Jesus as God, they took him for a great man, such as John the Baptist, or Elias, or some others. None of them said he is God. Now let us read on and see what his own disciples took him for: (Matthew 16:15-20)
So note, now Jesus asks his disciples about what they take him to be for, they respond by saying he is the SON OF GOD, Jesus agrees with them and tells them tell no man I am the Christ. So note, Jesus’ disciples do not say you are God, Jesus himself does not say he is God.

Now both the son of God and the term Christ do not mean God. They never have, and never will. The term Christ means Messiah, the definition of Messiah is not God, and the Jews who were awaiting their Messiah did not believe the Messiah would be God (~more about who the Jews believe the true Messiah will be and do~)

Actually, Jesus stated it quite clearly.*[Mark 14:61] Again the high priest asked him, and said to him: Art thou the Christ the Son of the blessed God? [62] And Jesus said to him: I am. And you shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of the power of God, and coming with the clouds of heaven.*I’m sure it was very clear to all the Jews that heard Him say, “I AM”, that He was not only telling them that He was the Son of God, but that He was God. While the Apostles and His Disciples might not have fully understood that He was God before the crucifixion, they were certainly very sure of it after His Resurrection, when He appeared to them in the upper room and, later, at Pentecost and His Ascension.

 

[KathleenGee]

Islamicists consider themselves experts on Christianity…in fact they know more about it and are most superior in their comprehensive knowledge that exceeds all our scholars and all the books contained in the Vatican library.

Amazing and incredible!

They are experts on Judaism and understand the Bible and know it better than all the Jewish scholars combined.

They are experts on Buddhism, can explain it, and are superior to any Buddhist scholar.

The Islamicists are all knowing and superior because they just are.

 

[Kouyate42]

don’t be innocent when you talk with muslims, they are not serious when they quote the bible ,or when they ask you question about Jesus , all what they want is to put you in confusion , so you can buy what they will offer you ! This is the whole tactic

Muslim quoting the Bible is generally a completely baffling and dishonest exercise. They’ll cherry-pick verses, often out of context, and their logic is a top-down approach where the Qur’an is automatically assumed true, ‘supporting’ Bible verses are cherry-picked and any verse which disagrees with the Qur’an is deemed as ‘corrupted’.

When debating Muslims, I try and avoid Scriptural debates for this reason, because any sort of evidence which refutes their points, they say is based on corrupted evidence.

 

[Wesley7]

I stumbled across an islamic website and it had a section labeled ‘10 reasons why Jesus is not God’

Your thoughts…

Let Islamists be Islamic.

Let Jews be Jews.

Let Christians be Christians.

. . :tiphat:.

 

[Kouyate42]

Let Islamists be Islamic.

Let Jews be Jews.

Let Christians be Christians.

. . :tiphat:.

Many are kept in Islam by a combination of fear and ignorance. They stay in Islam because they’re told they’ll be sent into hellfire if they leave Islam (and in the case of many countries, people are put to death for supposed apostasy). Many Muslims, contrary to popular belief, are also highly ignorant of their religion outside what the local imams tell them, and in some cases, don’t even speak/read Arabic but recite Qur’an parrot-style.

 

[Telstar]

8- Will you worship Jesus, or the one Jesus worshiped? (Matthew 26:36-44)
So are you going worship the one Jesus prayed to? Or are you going to worship Jesus? Logically you worship the one Jesus prayed to. Secondly just say you were alive at Jesus’ time and you were with him, and you knew he prayed to God and so on, would you honestly believe he is God? Off course not! It gets worse as Jesus himself claims he has a God: (John 20:16-18) Now tell me, if a man came to you and told you he has a God, would you honestly believe that man is God? No, you would not. Logic tells you if a man has a God then that man is not God, however Christians throw logic out the window it seems, Christians want to worship Jesus, not the one Jesus worshiped. Christians want Jesus to be their God; they do not want Jesus’ God to be their God. What a shame. So Jesus prays and has a God, how un-Godly is that?

Jesus is God, so I have no problem worshiping Him, or the Father and the Holy Spirit. I don’t have a problem praying to any of Them, either. Muslims don’t understand God as a Holy Trinity, so they have a limited view of Who Jesus really is.

When Jesus was on the earth, He was living as a mortal man and suffered the way all men suffer. He was as physically weak as any of us. When He was troubled, He prayed to the Father to ask for help, in understanding what the Father wanted Him to do, as well as knowing all that the Father expected from Him. He also prayed for all those around Him that needed His prayers to strengthen them, so they could face His crucifixion and death without losing their faith in God. As I said before, many things were hidden from Him by the Father while He lived on the earth. But, He knew His fate as the Messiah from prophecies, so knowing all that He would have to face, it’s no surprise that He would ask the Father if “this chalice” could be removed from Him. As a human being, He had all of the weakness of the flesh that we do. The thought of it terrified Him, but He was still willing to subject Himself to the will of the Father, because He knew that it had to be done, and, He was the only one that could ever do it.

Jesus did all of this as an example for us to follow when we have similar problems that seem overwhelming to us, or when we have important decisions to make. We should always pray to God for guidance in our own lives, just like Jesus prayed for guidance in His.

9- God comes out of a woman? God is a helpless baby?
The very fact that Jesus was given birth, and came out as little helpless small baby is enough to refute the claim that Jesus is God. It is utter blasphemy to claim that God came out of a women like all people, it is utter blasphemy to claim God came out crying and screaming and being helpless and weak. Such nonsense is insulting to God; this itself is enough to prove Jesus is not God. How can you claim that God came out of a woman? Are you mad? Are you insane? How can you insult God in such a manner, you Christians should be ashamed of yourselves for ascribing such rubbish to God. Are you actually going to tell me this how God was once? How can you logically claim that God was like this helpless baby at once? Let us see what God’s true word, the Noble Quran says on such blasphemies: (Sorry, I’m not posting any of these. ~Telstar)

God humbled Himself and took on human flesh, so He could show us that He truly loves us enough to become exactly like one of us, with all of our human frailties and temptations. It was His way of showing us that we really can do all that God wants us to do, because He was willing to do all of that, and much more than He would ever ask of any of us. Jesus’ whole life is our example that it can be done. It might not always be easy, He certainly proved that, but as long as we’re willing to get back up whenever we fall, we can definitely do it.

It’s only ‘insulting’ to Muslims when they have a twisted view of God, as a God of pride and vengeance. God became a humble man to show that pride will always be man’s downfall, while humility is the highest virtue to God. It was pride that caused the fall of Lucifer and his angels, as well as Adam and Eve. The perfect humility of Jesus is meant to counteract the pride of men that are never willing to humble themselves before anyone, including God.

10- The God of the Bible comes from incest!
It may come as a shocker to most, but the Bible claims that Jesus comes from incest. Since Christians claim Jesus is God this means God came from incest, all you have to do is go look at the family line of Jesus and see for yourself. What makes this more sad is that Christians do not even know this information, they claim that you are a liar if you bring it up, or that you are disgusting etc. Here is the proof for all to see: (all of Genesis 38: with 11, 13-19 and other references bolded. Then, he goes on to use Matthew 1 as a cross reference. ~Telstar)
So as you can see, Jesus’ family line comes down from this sick act of incest between father and daughter in law, this means the God of the Christians comes from incest! Such blasphemy is disgusting and utterly degrading to the true God and Christians should be ashamed of themselves.

So as we clearly saw, Jesus cannot be God, if a Christian wants to continue believing Jesus is God, it is their own loss.

This is absolutely ludicrous. None of us can trace our own family history, without encountering a few ‘skeletons in the closet’. This whole premise is just this person’s way to grasp at straws to make a useless argument that doesn’t mean a thing. I wonder if he’s ever traced his own roots to find all of the filthy skeletons in his own family’s closet. Somehow, I doubt he’d ever admit to finding any of them.

 

[Nine_Two]

Thank you, Eric! I knew I shouldn’t have clicked on that link. I just wanted to copy what was there to be able to respond to it. Lesson learned. When I’m inspired not to do something, I should listen! Discernment really is a great gift, as long as we pay attention to it.

I couldn’t get back on CAF for the rest of the night, after my last post in this thread.

I think that was the website itself. I was having the same issue on two different computers.

 

[jerry_joseph]

They always tells that bible is forged by christians, but they fails to provide who forged it, when it is forged, which book/chapter/verse is forged, where it is forged. Also if any correction made by christians is acceptable to jews?. If so , then definitly OT of Christians should be different from Jews. But books which are commonly using by jews and christians are same.

If any change made by Roman catholic church is acceptable to orthodox or protestant and vice versa.?.

But in history that true that Caliph Uthman ordered destruction of exsisting versions of quran and introduced a new one , claiming that exsisting versions are manipulated. What quran exsisting now is originated at the time of Caliph Uthman. Hadis also mentions this.

Muslims answers this as , there exsisted different dialectics of Quran and this difference occured among those who byhearted and recited …in the passage of time difference occured. So in order to getting uniformity, caliph destroyed those versions which is deviated from original verses.

But anyway , there is no proof in history that any church or jews destroyed copies of Bible or Torah.

 

[Kouyate42]

They always tells that bible is forged by christians, but they fails to provide who forged it, when it is forged, which book/chapter/verse is forged, where it is forged. Also if any correction made by christians is acceptable to jews?. If so , then definitly OT of Christians should be different from Jews. But books which are commonly using by jews and christians are same.

If any change made by Roman catholic church is acceptable to orthodox or protestant and vice versa.?.

But in history that true that Caliph Uthman ordered destruction of existing versions of quran and introduced a new one , claiming that existing versions are manipulated. What quran exsisting now is originated at the time of Caliph Uthman. Hadis also mentions this.

This is true, and there still exists ONE copy of the Qur’an which currently sits in a Turkish museum, which the authorities REFUSE to allow to be studied. From the existing evidence, it seems that the text isn’t the ‘authorized’ version and Islamic scholars are fearful that the new text may turn people away from Islam or corrupt their beliefs.

Muslims answers this as , there exsisted different dialectics of Quran and this difference occured among those who byhearted and recited …in the passage of time difference occured. So in order to getting uniformity, caliph destroyed those versions which is deviated from original verses.

Indeed, you could go to any genizah (a special cemetery for sacred texts) to see the respect accorded to Torah scrolls.

And in Christianity, holy books and texts were rare, expensive to produce and were afforded a lot of care and respect as a result. Look at the Lindisfarne Gospels- they’re bound in gold and metal, covered in elaborate detailed calligraphy and drawings, and the text itself is a work of art. This and texts like it weren’t made to be thrown away or destroyed.

 

[KathleenGee]

The problem with Islamicists is faulty beliefs about what they think Christianity. There are some non-Catholic Protestants communities who do not consider us Christian either because they were indoctrinated to think so…

So for Muslims to come here to give their reasons…they should also know that there are fundamentalist Christians out there who think we are not Christians…so may be consider where to direct this thread…being facetious here.

What Muslims need to realize is that first of all, they are working with other people who before God are actually on the same level of value as they are.

Secondly, other people have their own history, anthropology, personages, laws, regulations, customs. You have to study people in the context of where they live.

Third, there is this ongoing problem of language and usage itself. A phrase might be OK in one part of the country, but one could go to another part of the same country and the phrase could be down right insulting.

Same with hand gestures…we saw the use of the shoe by the Arab people…I remember seeing a Kuwaiti woman without the long outward clothes holding a shoe and waving it at an Iraqi captured soldier while the Kuwaiti men stood by laughing. It was funny…but we don’t use shoes in America to insult people.

Americans use hand gestures like Italians do.

President Bush went to Italy and was looking forward to have a great time with the Italian people. At a big and enthusiastic rally, he made a friendly gesture to the Italian people. But what President Bush did, he made a gesture at the Italian people that meant something totally different and it did not go over well at all…He made an American gesture that was interpreted to mean to the Italian men present, 'Your wife is cheating on you!…so it did not go over well. BAD.

See how the use of hand gestures alone can cause big, big problems for people who come from a different place.

Same with Islam people who come in here, who do not understand Scripture because they were not given a full deck of cards…and try to teach us something that we know already by the presentation, is incorrect.

Essentially, what Muslims are learning and hearing are sources that we call, ‘cooked books’…half baked…

Catholic interpretation of scripture is different than that of Protestants and it doesn’t invalidate us as Christians, although they think we do.

 

[KathleenGee]

So to avoid any problems in understanding others’ faith, or use of words, or hand gestures, you have to study the people first.

In response to 10 Reasons why Jesus is Not God…my response is that there are 3 criteria to even understanding Scripture in the first place.

The Catholic Church is the only truly whole and complete and authorized interpreter of Sacred Scripture in terms of Christianity. The New Testament fulfills the Old.

We find context and unity in the whole of Sacred Scripture because Christ came as Messiah to save His people from sin. You see how God is revealed in the gathering of people, not in a book or text.

The Bible, to say it is without error…is irrelevant. The Bible is speaking of documented history of faith. The Bible is both 100% human and 100% divine…the Bible and its books is used by God to raise us up to His glory and strengthen us in Him…as the whole of the Bible is Jesus Christ, the Eternal Word.

We believe God created the world through Jesus Christ.

Jesus did not tell His apostles to write it down…He said, to ‘Do it’…Words are open to interpretation, but we certainly can all witness an event and attest to it, although each one having a certain take or perception not shared by others…

And Christ picked not just one person, He picked 12. In objective documentation to a real event that impacts humanity, scholars are recognizing that a witness of one or two or three is not enough of an event…they look to atleast 10 different testimonies to affirm if such an event happened.

We have 12 apostles who witnessed Our Lord. And we have to study all their different perceptions and insights, not just one apostle to get a greater understanding of Christ…with the help of the Holy Spirit…always with the Holy Spirit.

So to understand Scripture…we must first and always pray to the Holy Spirit that the Word will lead us to truth and unity and not disunity and division. So, secondly, when studying Sacred Scripture we need to see it in the context of the Living Tradition given us by the Church, the understanding, the ‘take’ given us and passed down from the original apostles…the work of the Holy Spirit…the doing, the being part of the Resurrected Life of Christ.

And our measure, our tool, our guide, thirdly, again is the analogy of faith provided us by the Catholic Church as our guide, so that we can study Scripture in charity and empowerment by the Lord to bring us new life.