10 reasons why liberal Catholicism is doomed

[ConstantineTG]

Let me make myself more clear when I sepak about this change. What I am really talking about is that we are starting to look at how our catechisis has been implemented over the past 50 years, and it’s pretty much been a failure in the West, just look at the numbers. If this was not the case we would not see what’s going on in the world now because we would not be afraid to stand up for truth!

I wholeheartedy agree with you on this. Although I feel oftentimes that the problem is not coming from inside the Church, but from outside.

People are finding out about there faith on their own, just as you pointed out that you would not know many things without comming to CAF.

Sorry, I was talking about the issues. I mean I’m not denying CAF did help a lot in my learning, but so did the CCC, Church documents, Catechists trainings, and even just conversing with clergy as well as attending a couple of Eastern Liturgies.

Many people are not aware of these issues that is always brought up here. And this is the larger amount of Catholics out there.

I can’t stand tacky music with guitars at mass, but I also won’t scold someone who is true Catholic (not lukewarm) who participates in that form of the Mass. It’s the others who come on here and immiediatly get offended because of our preference for “old” music and form of the mass, and they know who they are. I just question as to why do they come to this section if they are easily offended? I never grew up with the TLM, I gew up with the OF and served 10 years, and it was always guitar Spansh masses, yet I knew that somthing was missing and that I wasn’t getting the most out of the Mass. Come 2007 I learned about this old form of the mass where the priest had his “back towards the people” and spoke in Latin. i still go to Spanish mass with guitars, but once in a while.

Can’t say we’re eye to eye here. Although I do agree there are music that are not good at all, there are some modern hymns that I do like and wish they get used more often instead of rotating to those other undersirable music.

 

[ProVobis]

Very good, but we must not forget that these “liberals” have schooled many others and have yet to reach influential ranks. Let us pray that thse poor souls who where not tought properly may see the light.

There is some truth to that. The problem is that “conservatives” have already accepted much of the 60’s “liberal” mindset. Facing the people, babelization of the liturgy, a new liturgy, CITH, standing, eating meat on Fridays, etc. It will take a major paradigm shift to really doom the “liberal” Catholicism.

 

[archangel04]

I wholeheartedy agree with you on this. Although I feel oftentimes that the problem is not coming from inside the Church, but from outside.

Sorry, I was talking about the issues. I mean I’m not denying CAF did help a lot in my learning, but so did the CCC, Church documents, Catechists trainings, and even just conversing with clergy as well as attending a couple of Eastern Liturgies.

Many people are not aware of these issues that is always brought up here. And this is the larger amount of Catholics out there.

But again you took the responsiblity to act on that curiousity. Yes catechisis, even proper catechisis helps but only to certain extent. But as I was telling the Decon at my parish, you have a culture of reletavism that has dumbned down generations that when the Church tries to speak and teach she is muted, because this culuture is so much louder and attracst people much more. It’s sad to say, but it’s true. The Church need to really improve on the catechisis in the West, if this was not so then why is the Pope stating an Evangalizing council?

Can’t say we’re eye to eye here. Although I do agree there are music that are not good at all, there are some modern hymns that I do like and wish they get used more often instead of rotating to those other undersirable music.
**I agree there are some realy nice hymns out there, in fact just the other day at a Spanish guitar mass, they played on that I have not heard and gave me chills, but I am sure that’s the only time that its going to be played. **

There is some truth to that. The problem is that “conservatives” have already accepted much of the 60’s “liberal” mindset. Facing the people, babelization of the liturgy, a new liturgy, CITH, standing, eating meat on Fridays, etc. It will take a major paradigm shift to really doom the “liberal” Catholicism.
**Well as Br. JR has said that those two terms have to be used carefully. I don’t consider myself either one, I just follow the Church and what the Pope says. I am not perfect, and I am sure sometimes I may come off has harsh, but I am sure the Lord will forgive me. **

 

[GloriousOrder]

The actual article is rather vitriolic for my tastes. No matter how correct someone is, he must admonish his brethren with respect. To refer to old progressives “dying off” - or whatever the language was - is rather dishonourable and unseemly. Christ could be harsh because He is God, and is fit to reprove errors with boldness. Human beings are never sure of ourselves while on Earth, though, so we have to be more cautious than the Blessed Lord!

Perhaps when this fellow has the Beatific Vision, he can start being indignant again!

And I fail to see how it changes the Real Presence? Or the Mass.

My dear sister, no one has ever said that bad music at Mass detracts from the Real Presence. I am particularly offended by the horrible music because it does not show proper reverence to the Blessed One. We are not attending Mass to enjoy ourselves or to be filled with consolations; we are attending Mass to receive the Lord and be humbled as best we can.

Many people seem to misunderstand the arguments about solemnity. Those who are suspicious of ‘traditionalist’ arguments usually say: “well, the music may be horrid but you’re saying it detracts from the Holy Sacrifice, aren’t you? That’s just not true!” It’s a fatal case of assumption. Someone asked me why I am so focused on the lack of ad orientem positioning, and many other things; he also asked if I think these omissions detract from the Consecration, or make the Eucharist “less real”. I answered that I believe in solemnity and eastern-facing altars because of the Real Presence, not because I believe the lack thereof makes the Consecration invalid.

It is because we believe Jesus Christ is right there that we serenade Him with only the most glorious, serious music. Bad music does not invalidate the Consecration, but it does detract from our perception of God’s Glory. It’s like the difference between taking away from God’s Glory in reality, and taking away from God’s Glory in peoples’ perception. The former is impossible because God is unchanging and perfect, but the latter is possible via sin: our understanding of God’s Glory is lessened by our sins, but it does not lessen His Glory (think of Transcendent Realism).

 

[Warrenton]

I thought the blog was very funny. But I think the photo of the girl and the two boys was from the later 60s, not the 70’s. They seemed more hootenany than freaknix.

I agreed with everything the blogger said, but just once, I’d like to get in the time machine volkswagon, go back to the bad ole days, and listen to some Bob Dylan LPs with that hootenany chick.

Mea Maxima Culpa!!

 

[archangel04]

Leave it to the Liberal Catholics to hijack Jesus’s “teachings” well said archangel.

lol yeah I know I am terrible

 

[At_Trent]

I thought the blog was very funny. But I think the photo of the girl and the two boys was from the later 60s, not the 70’s. They seemed more hootenany than freaknix.

I agreed with everything the blogger said, but just once, I’d like to get in the time machine volkswagon, go back to the bad ole days, and listen to some Bob Dylan LPs with that hootenany chick.

Mea Maxima Culpa!!

No guitar Mass until the Novus ordo.

 

[Forte]

Cool article that doesn’t list any sources or proof.

 

[St_Francis]

Thanks for that – I hadn’t read any real hate speech in a few days and missed the refreshing invective.

No wonder ALL Catholics are being lumped in with radical right-wing evangelicals.

According to that poorly written and despicable blog, nothing good has happened since the 1960’s – which completely negates anything and everything in every parish across the world since that time.

There have been a LOT of people born and baptized Catholic in those 50 years and that’s a LOT of negation.

I find it difficult to equate that blog with Jesus’ commands to love our neighbor, particularly when the “neighbors” being attacked are fellow Catholics.

Here is a link to declining Mass attendance figures: cara.georgetown.edu/AttendPR.pdf

One of the things that I was unable to tell from the CARA figures was the issue of former Catholics who now identify themselves as another denomination altogether, but there has been a steep decline in weekly Mass attendance.

Additionally, there was a serious collapse of catechesis in the 1960s, which is currently only slightly being rectified, so a substantial number even of those who attend regularly do not understand basic points of Catholic teaching.

When some criticize the “implementation of the Spirit of Vatican 2,” they are looking at what they see as a decline in the Faith. You say we are “negating” what has happened, we say we are regretting what more might have been done had the very serious declines not taken place.

 

[maximus]

It would be interesting to know the state of Church in the US in terms of current grow of orthodoxy or embracing of progressive ideologies according to reliable data. It seems from general polling that 2/3 of the Church falls under the Liberal category, so if they are doomed we are going to be a much smaller church.

In my diocese, the are enough parishes to satisfy the leaning of Catholic population, we have one parish that only offers the Tridentine mass, my Parrish which is large and offers one Tridentine mass has very good traditional music, another big Parish that is Progressive that has a rather impressive music choir/band I heard their rendition of Trevor Thompson’s “We belong to you” and it was pretty awesome, then there is the Social Justice Parrish, the deaf Parrish, Afro-American Parrish, etc. The norm in my dioceses has been people go to the Parrish the fits them. Problems arise when Parishes of different character are merged or when Priests of a different outlook are assigned to Parish of different characters.

God Bless

 

[Milesius]

Misses the number one reason.

It is not joined to the living vine which is Christ.

When they abandoned the traditions they severed their ties with the Church Triumphant in Heaven who followed those traditions and who passed those traditions to us and with Christ who gave them to us.

And so they have become what we see today so clearly, a withered and dying branch which bears no fruit, cannot bear fruit, in fact cannot even sustain itself.

 

[At_Trent]

Misses the number one reason.

It is not joined to the living vine which is Christ.

When they abandoned the traditions they severed their ties with the Church Triumphant in Heaven who followed those traditions and who passed those traditions to us and with Christ who gave them to us.

And so they have become what we see today so clearly, a withered and dying branch which bears no fruit, cannot bear fruit, in fact cannot even sustain itself.

Well said

 

[ferrarifanjeff]

Personal tastes have nothing to do with salvation. Whether you like the old, the new or that in transition, it’s been changing from the beginning. Trying to build anything on this earth that will remain “same” is like building a house on the ocean.

Jesus taught us that we’d not have a “place to rest” in this world, so why do we insist on creating a sameness in anything? The church will always change and always has. Jesus remains the same.

Our attachment to anything beyond Jesus is just another form of idol worship in my opinion. If the only way we can be satisfied is to have Latin or otherwise, I’d rather not be a part of the conversation.

Change does not = Liberal. Change is merely change…

God bless you all…

 

[FAB]

lastpapist.blogspot.com/2010/10/liberal-catholics-your-failed-mission.html

Wishful thinking. An unproductive waste of time.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

My dear sister, no one has ever said that bad music at Mass detracts from the Real Presence. I am particularly offended by the horrible music because it does not show proper reverence to the Blessed One. We are not attending Mass to enjoy ourselves or to be filled with consolations; we are attending Mass to receive the Lord and be humbled as best we can.

Many people seem to misunderstand the arguments about solemnity. Those who are suspicious of ‘traditionalist’ arguments usually say: “well, the music may be horrid but you’re saying it detracts from the Holy Sacrifice, aren’t you? That’s just not true!” It’s a fatal case of assumption. Someone asked me why I am so focused on the lack of ad orientem positioning, and many other things; he also asked if I think these omissions detract from the Consecration, or make the Eucharist “less real”. I answered that I believe in solemnity and eastern-facing altars because of the Real Presence, not because I believe the lack thereof makes the Consecration invalid.

It is because we believe Jesus Christ is right there that we serenade Him with only the most glorious, serious music. Bad music does not invalidate the Consecration, but it does detract from our perception of God’s Glory. It’s like the difference between taking away from God’s Glory in reality, and taking away from God’s Glory in peoples’ perception. The former is impossible because God is unchanging and perfect, but the latter is possible via sin: our understanding of God’s Glory is lessened by our sins, but it does not lessen His Glory (think of Transcendent Realism).

But who gets to decide what horrible music is? What if I like the music but you don’t?

We can’t even get people to agree on what liberal Catholicism is.

Is it going to the NO, taking CITH, in English?

Or is it a Catholic who believes in things that the Church does not teach…such as women priests and going to Mass just when you “feel” like it?

I may find God’s Glory in things that you do not…who is right?

For example…I may enjoy God’s creation in my red colored leaves falling from my tree…my neighbor may not agree when they are all in his yard…

 

[PJM]

=ncstevem;7187629]lastpapist.blogspot.com/2010/10/liberal-catholics-your-failed-mission.html

HAS anyone TOLD THEM YET? Does not seem to be common knowledge.

“From your lips to God’s ears!”

 

[archangel04]

Personal tastes have nothing to do with salvation. Whether you like the old, the new or that in transition, it’s been changing from the beginning. Trying to build anything on this earth that will remain “same” is like building a house on the ocean.

Jesus taught us that we’d not have a “place to rest” in this world, so why do we insist on creating a sameness in anything? The church will always change and always has. Jesus remains the same.

Our attachment to anything beyond Jesus is just another form of idol worship in my opinion. If the only way we can be satisfied is to have Latin or otherwise, I’d rather not be a part of the conversation.

Change does not = Liberal. Change is merely change…

God bless you all…

Here we go You have one post on here, and the first thing you do is come one here and start something! Were you banned and came back with new name?

Wishful thinking. An unproductive waste of time.

Just like those who wanted to change the identity of the Church with the Spirit of V2 right? Talk about blowing up in your face lol.

But who gets to decide what horrible music is? What if I like the music but you don’t?

We can’t even get people to agree on what liberal Catholicism is.

Is it going to the NO, taking CITH, in English?

Or is it a Catholic who believes in things that the Church does not teach…such as women priests and going to Mass just when you “feel” like it?

I may find God’s Glory in things that you do not…who is right?

For example…I may enjoy God’s creation in my red colored leaves falling from my tree…my neighbor may not agree when they are all in his yard…

If you look at history the Church she as always encouraged anything rich, spiritual, and reverent in the art (music, art, ect.) It’s really common sence, any music that is typical and common really has no place at the Mass, but it can be used outside Mass in a prayerful expression. Gregorian has the highset place of honor in the Church, the Church her self has proclaimed this, and no other music is equal to it, unless the Church changes This does not mean that other styles are not welcomed, but those that are must be prayerfully and reverently expressed. Remember the Mass is not a dance club, it’s the great prayer given to us by Christ. Another thing Greagorian has stood the test of time, and it’s not a fad like other styles of music, there is a reason why many music students must take basic coursed on this style of music.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I would say that, by and large, the blogger was correct…though I don’t think there is an “explosion” of the EF throughout the world. Other than that, I think he’s spot on…I also checked his archives…I don’t think I would want non-Catholics to take this blog as representative of the Catholic Church. Yes, he has the truth nailed down, but he’s also possessed of a tone that is, frankly, mean. *Veritas et Caritas, Caritas et Veritas…*we must have both.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

but he’s also possessed of a tone that is, frankly, mean. *Veritas et Caritas, Caritas et Veritas…*we must have both.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

If you look at history the Church she as always encouraged anything rich, spiritual, and reverent in the art (music, art, ect.) It’s really common sence, any music that is typical and common really has no place at the Mass, but it can be used outside Mass in a prayerful expression. Gregorian has the highset place of honor in the Church, the Church her self has proclaimed this, and no other music is equal to it, unless the Church changes This does not mean that other styles are not welcomed, but those that are must be prayerfully and reverently expressed. Remember the Mass is not a dance club, it’s the great prayer given to us by Christ. Another thing Greagorian has stood the test of time, and it’s not a fad like other styles of music, there is a reason why many music students must take basic coursed on this style of music.

ah…but again…other styles are welcomed…but must be prayerfully and reverently expressed…who gets to decide? There are many on these boards that have suddenly become music critics…and mini theologist on songs…which seems…kind of protestant to me:shrug:

Did I say the Mass was a dance club??? But there is a big difference between a “dance club” and Greagorian chant. Lots of grey area in there that the Church herself does not lay out…so…who gets to decide???