10 things that suggest pro-lifers are not consistent in treating the unborn as human, in the sense that born people are human

  • Thread starter Thread starter FiveLinden
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
You’re right. There are only subjective methods of determining personhood. Historically that hasn’t not been a good thing…best to stick to scientific humanity(the human being growing on the continuum of human development) and not this idea of “personhood” because you find a human being inconvenient.
 
Last edited:
48.png
Freddy:
The only other options are a faith based position - and that doesn’t apply to me but does to you. Or a scientific one. And there are no scientific positions on this. So we are left with a personal (secular) belief.
If we can’t know if something is a person maybe we shouldn’t kill it.
You want to base everything on some sort of scientific proof? Am I getting that right?
 
I assume his point is “if we’re not sure if something is human - it might be, and it might not be, we should err on the side of caution every time”.
 
Last edited:
I assume his point is “if we’re not sure if something is human - it might be, and it might not be, we should err on the side of caution every time”.
Who on earth said it’s not human? Anyone around here?
 
Oh, so you believe unborn babies are human beings?
48.png
Freddy:
Who on earth said it’s not human? Anyone around here?
A large portion of pro abortion people.
And in passing, please point me to any comment by anyone at all that says what a pregnant woman is carrying is not human.
 
Yep, I read that. It doesn’t answer my question though. You said you don’t think at that stage it is a human being. But I didn’t ask you about early or late stages of pregnancy, I just asked if you think an unborn baby is a human being?
 
they constantly tell you that what they consider a woman is carrying shortly after conception is not considered a human (short for human being) or a person, then your argument will fall on deaf ears.
Are these your words or are you simply stating what others believe?
 
Yep, I read that. It doesn’t answer my question though. You said you don’t think at that stage it is a human being. But I didn’t ask you about early or late stages of pregnancy, I just asked if you think an unborn baby is a human being?
Why do I need to repeat what I’ve said? It isn’t a week after conception and is a week before birth. And if you want to play ‘At What Exact Point Is The Change’ then please find someone else to play it with.
 
48.png
Freddy:
they constantly tell you that what they consider a woman is carrying shortly after conception is not considered a human (short for human being) or a person, then your argument will fall on deaf ears.
Are these your words or are you simply stating what others believe?
Both…
 
Ah, but no, that’s exactly what I’m trying to get to. And the reason I entered this argument in the first place, to clarify another poster’s point. That poster’s point was, if you’re unsure as to what point a pregnancy becomes a human being, you should err on the side of caution, and if in doubt, assume it is a human being.
You can opt out of the debate if you want, but that point is absolutely crucial.
 
Ah, but no, that’s exactly what I’m trying to get to. And the reason I entered this argument in the first place, to clarify another poster’s point. That poster’s point was, if you’re unsure as to what point a pregnancy becomes a human being…
It’s plainly obvious that you haven’t read the posts in the thread. And if you can’t be bothered to read the arguments already given, what makes you think I’ll be bothered to repeat them?
 
I’ve read your posts in this thread. I’m trying to address a point that has not been addressed here, and if you want to evade it, that’s okay too. I’ve seen you repeat multiple times that a zygote isn’t a human, x isn’t a human and y isn’t a human. Your opinion, if course. But the point I’m trying to get at is that, since you admit that you don’t know where human life or “personhood”, although I don’t use that term, begins, then simply saying “it’s up for debate” is not good enough. Because that means that in the meantime possible human beings are dying. And that’s where the point about needing to err on the side of caution, until we’re sure, either way, comes in. Anyway my phone’s dying so I can’t continue this thought but if you don’t want to opt out I can continue tomorrow.
 
Last edited:
I’ve read your posts in this thread. I’m trying to address a point that has not been addressed here, and if you want to evade it, that’s okay too. I’ve seen you repeat multiple times that a zygote isn’t a human, x isn’t a human and y isn’t a human. Your opinion, if course. But the point I’m trying to get at is that, since you admit that you don’t know where human life or “personhood”, although I don’t use that term, begins, then simply saying “it’s up for debate” is not good enough. Because that means that in the meantime possible human beings are dying. And that’s where the point about needing to err on the side of caution, until we’re sure, either way, comes in. Anyway my phone’s dying so I can’t continue this thought but if you don’t want to opt out I can continue tomorrow.
What a woman is carrying shortly after conception is not a person. It will become a person but that is not the topic at hand. Which is whether there is agreement on that first statement. If there isn’t then all other discussions are moot. Do you agree with that last statement?
 
48.png
Freddy:
You want to base everything on some sort of scientific proof? Am I getting that right?
@sealabeag is correct, unless you can proove something is not a person, you should not kill it.
Can you give me some characteristics of a person on which we can both agree?
 
Unborn children do not have the right to sue or be sued (at least anywhere I know of) in the same way that others, including those in comas can.
Born children do not have the right to sue either Any lawsuit is brought by the parent or guardian on behalf of the child. Courts are generally reluctant to even allow a child to testify in a case - theirs or someone else’s.
Unborn children do not acquire citizenship rights before birth.
You might explore the issue of citizenship, both in the US and elsewhere. Your comment is not necessarily correct., as it can depend on a number of circumstances.
I know there are physical impediments to baptism in this case, but my point is that the Church, in deciding on the form this sacrament would take, excluded one group of ‘human beings’. This indicates a lack of full agreement with the proposition that a pre-viable unborn child is fully human.
either you understand that baptism requires (at least) pouring water over the head while pronouncing the words of baptism, or you have some really strange ideas about what it means to have a lack of full agreement with the proposition that a pre-viable unborn child is fully human. The impossibility of baptizing the child has no - zero, nada - bearing on your proposition.
Naming generally takes place only after birth
Do you have any children? I have yet, in 74 years, to meet anyone who had not already picked out names for their child (or children, in multiple birth instances) and with modern technology, many if not most parents are aware of the sex of their child and so pick one name.
There is no Church tradition of requium masses for unborn children.
There were no requiem Masses before for anyone born who was not a Catholic. So what?
There is no Church requirement to treat the bodies of unborn children who die, from whatever reason, as bodies of other humans are required to be treated. This is especially so the earlier an abortion occurs.
Given the stance of the Church on the use of fetal tissues in experiments and vaccine development, you might want to read a bit more widely.

Your number 8 almost appears to be facetious. Most miscarriages’ are a very private matter for the family, not something broadcast about. Have you ever spoken with “pro-lifers” about it sufficient to have had a valid survey? And given that most miscarriages are not preventable, your comment is specious - and likely insulting to anyone who has suffered a miscarriage.

9 - and your point is? Your presumption that this indicates that the child is not accepted as fully human is specious.

10 And Easter is far more important a feast day than Christmas. So? If Mary had miscarried, likely it would have never been known outside of her village, if even there.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top