11 years in jail for a stillbirth: did the Church in El Salvador support this legislation?

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Is it a matter of life and death for an actual person, or does abortion simply imply the destruction of something that has the potential to become a person. The legal system cannot determine that an embryo from the moment of conception is actually a person in the catholic sense of the word or the legal sense of the word.

Therefore they cannot put women in prison for murder. I know that must upset you, but those are the facts.
 
MPat said:
For I see that you citing RationalWiki and I do not see you citing any documents of the Church…
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I have cited documents of the church where they are relevant to the conversation. Look back through the conversation and you will see.
 
IWantGod said:
I have cited documents of the church where they are relevant to the conversation. Look back through the conversation and you will see.
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That does not answer the main question.

So, again, do you think your beliefs on this matter are compatible with the things the Church teaches?
 
MPat said:
So, again, do you think your beliefs on this matter are compatible with the things the Church teaches?
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I am not actively supporting abortion. i am simply pointing out that a secular legal system has no reason to give the same value that we give as Catholics to a human embryo.

If you think that means i am acting against Church Teaching then you are going to have to explain how.
 
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IWantGod said:
I am not actively supporting abortion.
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If someone attempted to physically prevent an abortion, what do you say should be done by the authorities?

If your answer is anything other than “let them fight it out among themselves”, then you do positively support abortion.
If you think that means i am acting against Church Teaching then you are going to have to explain how.
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“Precisely for this reason, civil law must ensure that all members of society enjoy respect for certain fundamental rights which innately belong to the person, rights which every positive law must recognize and guarantee. First and fundamental among these is the inviolable right to life of every innocent human being . . . The legal toleration of abortion or of euthanasia can in no way claim to be based on respect for the conscience of others, precisely because society has the right and the duty to protect itself against the abuses which can occur in the name of conscience and under the pretext of freedom.” Evangelium Vitae #71
 
IWantGod said:
I am not actively supporting abortion. i am simply pointing out that a secular legal system has no reason to give the same value that we give as Catholics to a human embryo.

If you think that means i am acting against Church Teaching then you are going to have to explain how.
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I had your whole view of society in mind, not merely the abortion.

Anyway, let’s take some examples from “Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church” (http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p...peace_doc_20060526_compendio-dott-soc_en.html) again:
  1. “Since God made men social by nature, and since no society can hold together unless some one be over all, directing all to strive earnestly for the common good, every civilized community must have a ruling authority, and this authority, no less than society itself, has its source in nature, and has, consequently, God for its author” (393)
  2. “Authority must be guided by the moral law. All of its dignity derives from its being exercised within the context of the moral order,[804] “which in turn has God for its first source and final end”.” (396)
  3. “These values do not have their foundation in provisional and changeable “majority” opinions, but must simply be recognized, respected and promoted as elements of an objective moral law, the natural law written in the human heart (cf. Rom 2:15), and as the normative point of reference for civil law itself.[813]” (397)
  4. “Human law is law insofar as it corresponds to right reason and therefore is derived from the eternal law. When, however, a law is contrary to reason, it is called an unjust law; in such a case it ceases to be law and becomes instead an act of violence” (398)
I’m pretty sure your views about “secular democracy” or “social contract” are incompatible with those teachings.

Are you going to disagree?
 
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Arkansan said:
If someone attempted to physically prevent an abortion, what do you say should be done by the authorities?
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It depends on what you mean by trying to prevent an abortion. If you mean someone is trying to reason with them not to have an abortion, then this is good. But if you are talking about locking up a women in a room and strapping them down to a table until they give birth, I’m sorry, this would clearly be wrong even though abortion is also wrong. Like i said two wrongs don’t make a right. I would prefer not to live in a fascist state and i think you would have i hard time finding a church authority that would agree with the idea of physically forcing a women to full term.
 
IWantGod said:
It depends on what you mean by trying to prevent an abortion.
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I’m talking about physically preventing an abortion in progress, much as one might physically prevent any other violent crime in progress.

That you did not answer the question at all shows that you understood its implications and are evading it.
 
Arkansan said:
I’m talking about physically preventing an abortion in progress, much as one might physically prevent any other violent crime in progress.

That you did not answer the question at all shows that you understood its implications and are evading it.
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The only way to physically prevent an abortion in any practical sense is locking up a women in a room and strapping them down to a table until they give birth,

Would you not agree?
 
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Arkansan said:
Let me repeat the question:

If someone attempted to physically prevent an abortion, what do you say should be done by the authorities?
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It depends on what you mean by trying to prevent an abortion. If you mean someone is trying to reason with them not to have an abortion, then this is good. But if you are talking about locking up a women in a room and strapping them down to a table until they give birth, I’m sorry, this would clearly be wrong even though abortion is also wrong. Like i said two wrongs don’t make a right. I would prefer not to live in a fascist state and i think you would have i hard time finding a church authority that would agree with the idea of physically forcing a women to full term.
 
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Even if abortion were outlawed, no one would be.locking women up as suggested earlier or thing them downas you suggest. All.sorts of acts are outlawed now, and people still do them, that’s why we have prisons.

But your idea that there is no way other than the Catholic way to show that an unborn child is not worthy of the same protection that we give to born human beings seems to me absurd. It is a biological fact that the unborn child is alive and an individual being and a hand being. The unborn child is simply in an early stage of development, one that each of us went through, just as we were all toddlers and teenagers.

Somehow we have been able to agree that sea turtle eggs are sea turtles, a protected species, and outlawed disturbing or destroying them, but when it comes to unborn humans, we’re all like, gee, I dunno? (Where’s that rolleyes emoticon when you really need it!)
 
That is precisely WHY they need to be treated as murderers by the courts. The victims deserve vindication, and the perpetrators must be made an example of to demonstrate the humanity of the victim.
 
IWantGod said:
There is a vast difference between policing somebodies home and policing somebodies womb.
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No, not really at all. Both pretty egregious. However no one is saying policing, saying if you do something(murder) wrong it is the state’s job to prosecute murder.
 
Absurd.

The only way to 100% prevent child abuse is to take kids away from parents…
 
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