12 Steps or 1 ??

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Well, AA doesn’t fix his problems, God does. AA is a program specifically targeted at getting alcoholics into a right relation with God so that God’s power can work in our lives. Most of what AA does is basic remedial spiritual development for the selfish and obtuse. It’s what normal people learned in middle school.
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Oh boy is this true for me! I remember, at about 7 months sober, looking at the 12 steps hanging on the wall of the fellowship and thinking "Wait a minute…I had to learn all this in order to receive my First Holy Communion in SECOND GRADE.
The sucess rate is probably as high as it is because we have “singleness of purpose.” It’s easier to be good at something if it’s all you do. The rate isn’t really as high as many of us like to think it is. It’s a pretty drastic program; not everyone is willing to embrace humility to the degree required, and for most of us alcoholic egomaniacs, by the time we react that point we’re pretty severely damaged.
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I think you are on the button on this one too. Unfortunately I have sat in meetings and heard people offer newcomers ‘shortcuts’ without really calling them shortcuts, of course, and my experience has been that if you try to the best of your ability to do these steps as thoroughly as you can you reap huge rewards.
I wasn’t in a position to get help from the Church at that point because I was not only fallen away, I was too obnoxious and belligerent to listen to anybody who couldn’t match my horror stories and show me he knew where I was coming from. Maybe Corapi could have whacked some sense into me. This works one drunk to another.
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Ok - that’s it, when did you start reading my journal???
Monday I had a conversation with a guy at a meeting. We were talking about some of the Catholic aspects of the program (teaching that faith without works is dead, confessing one’s faults to a a person, the use of the prayer of St Francis, etc.) I think he may be interested in Calix.

Calix isn’t exactly Catholic AA, but it is intended to help Catholic AA members develop spiritually, in keeping with Church teaching. Its a good place to find a Catholic sponsor. I encourage Catholic AAs to check it out, to stay grounded in truth.
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This I am going to do today…anything to help my continual call to conversion.
AA, like much of the modern world, is full of people who, while honestly trying to establish right relation with God, have some “different” ideas. It’s just that we started out a bit sicker than average, so somethimes different can get pretty wild.
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amen
As for being a fraud, it worked for me just as advertised. It has made it possible for me to stay away from a drink, live comfortably in my skin and become a useful member of society for the last 14 years.

At 6 months your friend is still pretty new at this. Let him find his way
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.

You are one of my new best friends…so there.
 
I’m one of those that think that the Church should have its own recovery program and yes I have misgivings about AA.

I’m involved with a recovery program called Celebrate Recovery it is Christ Centerd, but a protestant program.

I believe it was Christ that brought me to recovery, not recovery that brought me to Chirst.

I also believe recovery should involve all the problems of broken humanity and AA by dealing only with a person’s drinking problem opens a person to the chance of recurring relapses and neglects other related problems that are triggered by hidden sin and resentments. Sin is a word you don’t hear in many recovery programs.

I know many have found sobriety in AA and some have found thier way back to the Church after being involved in AA. But I believe we need a bridge within the Church community to break down the walls between those that don’t understand recovery and those that need it.

Please check out this intro video about CR

celebraterecovery.com/video.shtml

As a Catholic I believe the church community needs to be able to take care of all its members needs and a Catholic recovery program would help those in recovery to be a strong witness to the healing power of Chirst. At the time the intro video was made, 10 years ago, there were over 200 CR programs, in the last ten years that number has increased dramatically and is overseas now. Its growth in its first 16 years is faster then the first 16 years of AA. People are hungry for God.

Wouldn’t it be nice if there was a program that was Chirst Centered but also espoused the healing power of the sacraments and the teachings of the Catholic Church, how much more we that are in recovery could do in His name?

R=
Principle 1 -
Realize I’m not God; I admit that I am powerless to control my tendency to do the wrong thing and my life is unmanageable.
“Happy are those who know they are spiritually poor”
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Principle 2 -
Earnestly believe that God exists, that I matter to him, and that he has the power to help me recover.
“Happy are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted”
C=
Principle 3 -
Consciously choose to commit all my life and will to Christ’s care and control.
“Happy are the meek”
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Principle 4 -
Openly examine and confess my faults to God, to myself, and to someone I trust.
“Happy are the pure in heart”
V=
Principle 5 -
Voluntarily submit to every change God wants to make in my life and humbly ask Him to remove my character defects.
“Happy are those whose greatest desire is to do what God requires”
E=
Principle 6 -
Evaluate all my relationships; Offer forgiveness to those who have hurt me and make amends for harm I’ve done to others except when to do so would harm them or others.
“Happy are the merciful” “Happy are the peacemakers”
R=
Principle 7 -
Reserve a daily time with God for self examination, Bible readings and prayer in order to know God and His will for my life and to gain the power to follow His will.
Y=
Principle 8 -
Yield myself to God to be used to bring this Good News to others, both by my example and by my words.
“Happy are those who are persecuted because they do what God requires”
 
I’m not sure where to start.

Bennie, What part of AA doesn’t deal with hidden resentments and self discovery of sin? (Step 4, the chapter on which in the book 12 Steps and 12 Traditions LISTS the seven deadly sins)
Healing the whole person, not just quitting drinking? Steps 6, 7, 12

Not to rain on the Celebrate folks, if it works for you, great; but those criticisms of AA don’t square with the program as outlined in the literature. Mind you, I don’t deny that like Catholicism there are plenty of “non-practicing” AA’s who seem to pick and choose principles, (and some wonder why they can’t stay sober)

I HAVE seen people defend moral relativism, tolerate Catholic bashing, build cults of personality and a few other things, so criticism is accepted, but these remind me of people saying we Catholics worship Mary.
 
PapaSquash said:
I’m not sure where to start.

Bennie, What part of AA doesn’t deal with hidden resentments and self discovery of sin? (Step 4, the chapter on which in the book 12 Steps and 12 Traditions LISTS the seven deadly sins)
Healing the whole person, not just quitting drinking? Steps 6, 7, 12

Not to rain on the Celebrate folks, if it works for you, great; but those criticisms of AA don’t square with the program as outlined in the literature. Mind you, I don’t deny that like Catholicism there are plenty of “non-practicing” AA’s who seem to pick and choose principles, (and some wonder why they can’t stay sober)

I HAVE seen people defend moral relativism, tolerate Catholic bashing, build cults of personality and a few other things, so criticism is accepted, but these remind me of people saying we Catholics worship Mary.
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First and most AA is for alcoholics only and CR goes beyond the one issue.

And for you to understand my criticsms you need to go beyond the one issue of alcoholism. If you want to stay sober and that is all you want to do, AA is great.

But the Church Community needs to be a major part of the healing process and healing of the whole person takes the Church Community.

How often ave you heard how the the Church, or Christianity has failed an AA when they tell thier story? or How it was AA that saved their life? Well is it AA or God that saves?

Why do AA’s resist taking thier knowledge of recovery and the principles of recovery and putting it to work in a Christian and Catholic setting?
Is it because they trust AA, more then they trust Christ?
 
Bennie_P said:
First and most AA is for alcoholics only and CR goes beyond the one issue.

And for you to understand my criticsms you need to go beyond the one issue of alcoholism. If you want to stay sober and that is all you want to do, AA is great.
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What about all the other 12 step groups that are based on the same 12 steps as AA? There are groups that deal with other issues than alcoholism. For instance, Narcotics Anonymous and Overeaters Anonymous are a couple of other 12 step groups that I know of.
 
lak611 said:
What about all the other 12 step groups that are based on the same 12 steps as AA? There are groups that deal with other issues than alcoholism. For instance, Narcotics Anonymous and Overeaters Anonymous are a couple of other 12 step groups that I know of.
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What about them?

They divide the body, a program such as CR brings them into connection together as a community. Many of those other problems have the same connection to the brokeness of humanity caused by man’s original sin.

The format of CR is to bring people with different problems together for common worship, common teaching, then have separate issue related support groups.

CR also has 12 step study groups which are gender specific but combine members of the differnt issues together, you would be amazed what an alcoholic can learn from a sex addict or a co-dependant in these 12-step groups and vice-versa. The 12-step groups usually are made up with about a dozen people and they work through step workbooks over a year or so period. My orginal step group lasted 15 months. Members of the group become accountablity partners for each other and really become a very tight-nit group. Many also go on to lead other step groups. It is also amazing to see someone that was seeking help for anger, because he is in a step group with an alcoholic “discover”, “wow I have drinking problem.” and vice versa. That is where I’m talking about other related problems that are triggered by hidden sin and resentments. This doesn’t happen as well in AA with the one-on-one only approach to steps 4,5,6,7.

Many AAs with long-time sobriety that have come to CR and done a CR 12-step group always comment on how much deeper they were able to dig into things they missed in their original 4th step.

Just as we have many gifts to share, our weakness are our strength, and as the body of Christ we need to share that strength with each other.

The body is only strong if it is together.
Rom 12:4-5 For as in one body we have many members, but all the members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ; and every one members one of another:

I would just like see this concept go futher with the help and Grace of the sacraments of the Catholic Church which CR doesn’t have.

It doesn’t only give recovery, but builds community of believers.
 
I did NA for about a year and it helped…at first. Then I realized that the meetings were basically about people whining constantly. I quickly grew tired of that and decided to make Confession a regular part of my life, as well as having a spiritual director to whom I am morally accountable. It worked for me…I’ve been clean for nearly three years (methamphetamine abuse) and have no desire to go back to that horrible lifestyle.
That being said, AA and NA does work for a lot of people…it just seems to me that instead of having a “higher power” it is better to have Jesus Christ in regular Eucharist and regular Confession.
 
RWMorris said:
That being said, AA and NA does work for a lot of people…it just seems to me that instead of having a “higher power” it is better to have Jesus Christ in regular Eucharist and regular Confession.
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For a Christian (Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant), why would his “higher power” not be Jesus Christ?
 
RWMorris said:
I did NA for about a year and it helped…at first. Then I realized that the meetings were basically about people whining constantly. I quickly grew tired of that and decided to make Confession a regular part of my life, as well as having a spiritual director to whom I am morally accountable. It worked for me…I’ve been clean for nearly three years (methamphetamine abuse) and have no desire to go back to that horrible lifestyle.
That being said, AA and NA does work for a lot of people…it just seems to me that instead of having a “higher power” it is better to have Jesus Christ in regular Eucharist and regular Confession.
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AMEN The sacraments is were the true power is at.
 
PapaSquash! I checked out Calix and spoke with the gentleman in San Francisco who is helping to form a society there. What an INCREDIBLE group…and we had a long long talk. sorry to highjack the thread but I would urge all Catholic Alcoholics to check out Calix. I am going to see if we can get a society started at St. Joe’s in Modesto.

Thank you!
 
LSK said:
PapaSquash! I checked out Calix and spoke with the gentleman in San Francisco who is helping to form a society there. What an INCREDIBLE group…and we had a long long talk. sorry to highjack the thread but I would urge all Catholic Alcoholics to check out Calix. I am going to see if we can get a society started at St. Joe’s in Modesto.

Thank you!
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Sounds Great! A Calix group along with your AA group gives you great presence in your Paish community. My prayers are with you.
 
I’ve heard of Celebrate Recovery, and I think they have meetings in my area, but I’ve never attended. I’m a long-time member of Al-anon, and I think it is a wonderful program, completely compatible with my Catholic faith. I’ve also attended a few open AA meetings and anniversaries. Al-anon is not a relgious program. Each is free to accept God as they understand Him. It’s not the purpose of 12-step programs to define God for the individual. For me, I had a mixed up upbringing, raised Catholic until age 11, then after my parents’ divorce, went to a Methodist church, then no church at all. I had already come back to the Catholic Church when I found that my marriage was affected by alcoholism. Practicing the 12-steps deepened my faith. In the meetings, I have heard both Catholic bashing, and people who have returned to the Church. I do not like to hear people say “my higher power who I choose to call God”. I did my 5th step with a priest, and made my confession.
 
lak611 said:
For a Christian (Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant), why would his “higher power” not be Jesus Christ?
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I meant it might be easier to be around people who all have the higher power of Jesus Christ, rather than be around people who may believe something else.
 
LSK said:
PapaSquash! I checked out Calix and spoke with the gentleman in San Francisco who is helping to form a society there. What an INCREDIBLE group…and we had a long long talk. sorry to highjack the thread but I would urge all Catholic Alcoholics to check out Calix. I am going to see if we can get a society started at St. Joe’s in Modesto.

Thank you!
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Awesome. I am fairly new to Calix and I’m pretty charged up about it. It’s the Catholic module in the AA program.

We’re growing here. Spots on Relevant Radio help, and every Catholic AA I mention it to is at least mildly interested.
 
RWMorris said:
I meant it might be easier to be around people who all have the higher power of Jesus Christ, rather than be around people who may believe something else.
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Definitely true, there are some “unorthodox” higher powers out there, and we have to stay true to our faith. But a big reason I attend meeting is to be there for the new guy who walks in the door.

I hope that no matter where that new guy walks into a meeting there’s at least one if us there whose trust and faith is in Jesus and the truth, instead of just people who believe in “something else.”

And those “something else” people need the real truth too. They are in that meeting becasue they looking for it.

To mangle an AA saying: You might be the only copy of the Gospel they ever see.
 
I can’t say enough good things about AA. AA saved my dad’s life both physically and spiritually.

Jim beat me to the punch in his reference to Matt Talbot. Matt Talbot was an Irish Monk who was a raging alcoholic, and fell into all kinds of sin and depravity because of it before his recovery process. (of which is never ending for a true alcoholic)
He was working the 12 steps actively 50 years before AA came to exist. He started his recovery process and dedicated himself to the Lord and The Church for the remainder of his life. He is now on the fast track to sainthood. As far as I am concerned he is “The Man” to go to for intercession for alcoholism. I have had personal experience with him. Performed a miracle in my family! ***If the 12 steps worked for Matt and countless others, it is ok in my book!! ***He died when he was 60 something (can’t recall 60 what?) walking on his way to Mass. The testimonies to his help are an awesome read.
Just google him and you will find lots of info on him.

Tee
 
Teelynn said:
I can’t say enough good things about AA. AA saved my dad’s life both physically and spiritually.

Jim beat me to the punch in his reference to Matt Talbot. Matt Talbot was an Irish Monk who was a raging alcoholic, and fell into all kinds of sin and depravity because of it before his recovery process. (of which is never ending for a true alcoholic)
He was working the 12 steps actively 50 years before AA came to exist. He started his recovery process and dedicated himself to the Lord and The Church for the remainder of his life. He is now on the fast track to sainthood. As far as I am concerned he is “The Man” to go to for intercession for alcoholism. I have had personal experience with him. Performed a miracle in my family! ***If the 12 steps worked for Matt and countless others, it is ok in my book!! ***He died when he was 60 something (can’t recall 60 what?) walking on his way to Mass. The testimonies to his help are an awesome read.
Just google him and you will find lots of info on him.

Tee
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Matt Talbot didn’t work the 12 steps because there were no 12 steps in Matt’s time. The 12 steps is something that Bill W dreamed up in 20 minutes to try to explain what he did to get sober. AA’s try to highjack Matt by saying he followed the AA program, but he didn’t. He got sober by following God plan by following the teachings of Chirst and the Church.

He is a good example of how a Church center program can work and should exsist. My post is not to say doesn’t work for a lot of folks but to say the Church needs program. To build bridge to recovery. and back to the Church and most importan to Chirst.
PAX
If you want information about the true Matt Talbot go to this link
pioneertotal.ie/pioneer/fc?action=matt
 
Most AA meetings end with the Lord’s Prayer, though it is the protestant version. Unfortunately, there is a move within Al-anon to stop using the Lord’s Prayer, even though Lois herself preferred it - because it belongs to a particular religion - Christianity. Though I like the alternative closings, I hate to see the Lord’s Prayer removed, and would certainly vote to keep in in any group I attend. I don’t know if anything like this is happening in AA.
 
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