133 ad

[SingleMomMonica]

We pray it in my parish all the time, especially at early morning weekday mass. The young priest who usually celebrates the 6:15 am weekday mass comes out and kneels before the altar and recites the prayer three times before beginning the mass. The congregation all say it with him. I love it.

The way he says it is “Lord Jesus Christ, son of the living God, have mercy on me, a sinner!”

It’s a great way to start the day.

I suppose reciting the prayer 3 times is better than not at all, but the prayer according to the Gospel and the witness of the early Christians like St. Ignatius I quoted about earlier is that it is to be prayed without ceasing. This ‘unceasing prayer’ is what I’m talking about that’s missing in the Catholic Church.

To begin to develop the Practice of Unceasing Prayer most pray it a minimum of 100 times during their set time of prayer (prayer rule) each day in addition to through out the day. Eventually the prayer becomes a part of you so that you notice that in everything you’re doing, you are also praying - you’ll fall asleep with the prayer and wake up with the prayer, brush your teeth with the prayer…

 

[ryanoneil]

The Church was hierarchical in nature

“And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first-fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus saith the Scripture a certain place, ‘I will appoint their bishops s in righteousness, and their deacons in faith.’… Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry…For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties.” Pope Clement, Epistle to Corinthians, 42, 44 (A.D. 98).

“Since therefore I have, in the persons before mentioned, beheld the whole multitude of you in faith and love, I exhort you to study to do all things with a divine harmony, while your bishop presides in the place of God, and your presbyters in the place of the assembly of the apostles, along with your deacons, who are most dear to me, and are entrusted with the ministry of Jesus Christ, who was with the Father before the beginning of time, and in the end was revealed…Let nothing exist among you that may divide you ; but be ye united with your bishop, and those that preside over you, as a type and evidence of your immortality.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Magnesians, 6 (c. A.D. 110).

“For what is the bishop but one who beyond all others possesses all power and authority, so far as it is possible for a man to possess it, who according to his ability has been made an imitator of the Christ off God? And what is the presbytery but a sacred assembly, the counselors and assessors of the bishop? And what are the deacons but imitators of the angelic powers, fulfilling a pure and blameless ministry unto him, as…Anencletus and Clement to Peter?” Ignatius, To the Trallians, 7 (A.D. 110)

“See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyraens, 8 (c. A.D. 110).

“Hegesippus and the Events which he mentiones. Hegesippus in the five books of Memoirs which have come down to us has left a most complete record of his own views. In them he states that on a journey to Rome he met a great many bishops, and that he received the same doctrine from all. It is fitting to hear what he says after making some remarks about the epistle of Clement to the Corinthians. His words are as follows: And the church of Corinth continued in the true faith until Primus was bishop in Corinth. I conversed with them on my way to Rome, and abode with the Corinthians many days, during which we were mutually refreshed in the true doctrine. And when I had come to Rome I remained a there until Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus. And Anicetus was succeeded by Soter, and he by Eleutherus. In every succession, and in every city that is held which is preached by the law and the prophets and the Lord.’” Hegesippus, fragment in Eusebius Ecclesiastical History, 4:22 (c. A.D. 180).

 

[AmateurPianist]

The Church was hierarchical in nature

Now in reading Ignatius, I see the words bishop, presbyter, and deacon come up all of the time.

I am trying to get a handle on what these exactly were and how they relate to what I know.

It seems that the scope of bishop is the city (possibly metropolitan area) as Polycarp was bishop of the Smyrnaeans and Polybius was bishop of the Trallians.

I am trying to find evidence of a level higher than bishop. In one letter there was an ambiguous reference to apostles. I am not sure yet whether the church at this time had what they considered to be apostles and what their scope was.

I have yet to find in the writings of Ignatius any reference to one specific man who was over all of the known Christian church. But then again, I have not gone through all of these letters.

Of course it just occurred to me that Ignatius himself was writing letters to churches in several locations including Rome. So obviously whatever his responsibilities were, he was well known in all of these locations.

 

[SingleMomMonica]

Now in reading Ignatius, I see the words bishop, presbyter, and deacon come up all of the time.

I am trying to get a handle on what these exactly were and how they relate to what I know.

It seems that the scope of bishop is the city (possibly metropolitan area) as Polycarp was bishop of the Smyrnaeans and Polybius was bishop of the Trallians.

I am trying to find evidence of a level higher than bishop. In one letter there was an ambiguous reference to apostles. I am not sure yet whether the church at this time had what they considered to be apostles and what their scope was.

I have yet to find in the writings of Ignatius any reference to one specific man who was over all of the known Christian church. But then again, I have not gone through all of these letters.

Of course it just occurred to me that Ignatius himself was writing letters to churches in several locations including Rome. So obviously whatever his responsibilities were, he was well known in all of these locations.

The highest office in the Church is a Bishop.

A Bishop of a smaller land area/population is simply called Bishop. A Bishop of a larger land area/population is called a Metropolitan. A Bishop of a very large area - like an entire Country is either called an ArchBishop or a Patriarch depending on whether or not his See is considered a Patriarchate or not.

These clarification terms used for Bishops didn’t come into the seen until a little later in history.

It was in one of the first Ecumencial Councils that we really begin to see the term: Patriarch - used based on the historical/political significance of those areas. The first 5 Patriarchates were: Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem. Of those first 5 Patriarchs (there are more now) the Church in Antioch was established by St. Peter, Sts. Peter & Paul established the Church in Rome, St. Andrew established the Church in Constantinople, St. Mark established the Church in Alexandria and St. James established the Church in Jerusalem. This does not in any way mean that these were the only Churches established by the Apostles - there were many more; however, due to the historical/political significance of these cities and their size they were deemed Patriarchates.

Refuting Catholics false assumption: We know that it was not do to any significance surrounding St. Peter that Rome was listed as "first among equals’ because if that were the case Antioch would have either come first (being St. Peter began that Church first & without the help of St. Paul) or at the very least 2nd in the order of importance, but it is listed 2nd to last, but it was rank 4th in importance.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Here is your chance to show that the early Christian church was just like your church (whatever it may be).

I have arbitrarily chosen a date about 100 years after the resurrection of Christ. The apostles were dead, but it was only 1-2 generations after the apostles.

What did this church believe? How was it organized? What were its practices? What was its worship like? How far into the known world had it grown?

Groundrules:

Quotes from historic sources are welcome, up to 133 AD of course. After this point it must be in reference to this point in time. I might permit a little fudge on the 133 AD date, but not much of one.

If you want to quote Scripture as a historical source, if you are quoting a passage whose interpretation is debatable (and we know what they are don’t we), please provide evidence that the church at this point in time favored your interpretation.

Oh one more thing. It is only fair to say that the church of this period did not believe in doctrine or practice X if you can find a source that disagrees with doctrine or practice X. Otherwise, the best we can say is that there is no evidence that this church believed in doctrine or practice X (these two statements are not the same).

Regarding baptism in the early Church from the Didache(
Estimated Range of Dating: 50-120 C.E.)

Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism. And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

Regarding the Eucharist:

Chapter 9. The Eucharist. Now concerning the Eucharist, give thanks this way. First, concerning the cup:

We thank thee, our Father, for the holy vine of David Thy servant, which You madest known to us through Jesus Thy Servant; to Thee be the glory for ever…

And concerning the broken bread:
We thank Thee, our Father, for the life and knowledge which You madest known to us through Jesus Thy Servant; to Thee be the glory for ever. Even as this broken bread was scattered over the hills, and was gathered together and became one, so let Thy Church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into Thy kingdom; for Thine is the glory and the power through Jesus Christ for ever…

But let no one eat or drink of your Eucharist, unless they have been baptized into the name of the Lord; for concerning this also the Lord has said, “Give not that which is holy to the dogs.”

Sunday Worship:

Chapter 14. Christian Assembly on the Lord’s Day. But every Lord’s day gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one who is at odds with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned. For this is that which was spoken by the Lord: “In every place and time offer to me a pure sacrifice; for I am a great King, says the Lord, and my name is wonderful among the nations.”

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Now in reading Ignatius, I see the words bishop, presbyter, and deacon come up all of the time.

I am trying to get a handle on what these exactly were and how they relate to what I know.

It seems that the scope of bishop is the city (possibly metropolitan area) as Polycarp was bishop of the Smyrnaeans and Polybius was bishop of the Trallians.

I am trying to find evidence of a level higher than bishop. In one letter there was an ambiguous reference to apostles. I am not sure yet whether the church at this time had what they considered to be apostles and what their scope was.

I have yet to find in the writings of Ignatius any reference to one specific man who was over all of the known Christian church. But then again, I have not gone through all of these letters.

Of course it just occurred to me that Ignatius himself was writing letters to churches in several locations including Rome. So obviously whatever his responsibilities were, he was well known in all of these locations.

The Corinthians consulted Pope Clement in about 95 AD regarding an internal dispute. This is from his letter in response:

Owing, dear brethren, to the sudden and successive calamitous events which have happened to ourselves, we feel that we have been somewhat tardy in turning our attention to the points respecting which you consulted us;…You therefore, who laid the foundation of this sedition, submit yourselves to the presbyters, and receive correction so as to repent, bending the knees of your hearts. Learn to be subject, laying aside the proud and arrogant self-confidence of your tongue. For it is better for you that you should occupy a humble but honourable place in the flock of Christ, than that, being highly exalted, you should be cast out from the hope of His people…If, however, any shall disobey the words spoken by Him through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and serious danger;

newadvent.org/fathers/1010.htm

Further reference to this letter and to the unity of doctrine in the early Church:

“Hegesippus in the five books of Memoirs which have come down to us has left a most complete record of his own views. In them he states that on a journey to Rome he met a great many bishops, and that he received the same doctrine from all. It is fitting to hear what he says after making some remarks about the epistle of Clement to the Corinthians. His words are as follows: ‘And the church of Corinth continued in the true faith until Primus was bishop in Corinth. I conversed with them on my way to Rome, and abode with the Corinthians many days, during which we were mutually refreshed in the true doctrine. And when I had come to Rome I remained a there until Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus. And Anicetus was succeeded by Soter, and he by Eleutherus. In every succession, and in every city that is held which is preached by the law and the prophets and the Lord.’” Hegesippus, Memoirs, fragment in Eusebius Ecclesiatical History, 4:22 (A.D. 180).

scripturecatholic.com/apostolic_succession.html

 

[PaulDupre]

I suppose reciting the prayer 3 times is better than not at all, but the prayer according to the Gospel and the witness of the early Christians like St. Ignatius I quoted about earlier is that it is to be prayed without ceasing. This ‘unceasing prayer’ is what I’m talking about that’s missing in the Catholic Church.

Most Catholics have full-time jobs, and therefore cannot pray without ceasing in the way that you describe. My work (software development) requires deep and complete concentration. I cannot say the prayer all day - I would get fired.

That being said, even modern professionals can pray without ceasing if we have the mindset that every task we do, no matter how complex or how mundane, is dedicated to the Lord God and done with His glory in mind.

God love you,
Paul

 

[Love_is_Patient]

I suppose reciting the prayer 3 times is better than not at all, but the prayer according to the Gospel and the witness of the early Christians like St. Ignatius I quoted about earlier is that it is to be prayed without ceasing. This ‘unceasing prayer’ is what I’m talking about that’s missing in the Catholic Church.

To begin to develop the Practice of Unceasing Prayer most pray it a minimum of 100 times during their set time of prayer (prayer rule) each day in addition to through out the day. Eventually the prayer becomes a part of you so that you notice that in everything you’re doing, you are also praying - you’ll fall asleep with the prayer and wake up with the prayer, brush your teeth with the prayer…

Can’t you express your love of the Jesus prayer without bashing the Catholic Church??

 

[ecce_ego]

The CCC does briefly make mention of the Jesus Prayer; however, I’ve yet to hear of any Monastery or area within the Catholic world that actually uses the Jesus Prayer - let alone, any Catholic place that comes close to that Orthodox Island: Mount Athos - where Orthodox Christian Monks have been known to be completely illuminated to the extent that others could not look upon them they were sooo very bright.

inathos.gr/athos/en/

If you have, please share.
What Catholic Monastery practices the Jesus Prayer?
What Catholic land are there many Monasteries in the same location that through the use of the unceasing Jesus Prayer have been so illuminated that others can not even look at them?

I am a traditional Roman catholic, and I have been saying the Jesus Prayer for years. I have also found it to be a great prayer to be used at any time.

 

[PaulDupre]

Can’t you express your love of the Jesus prayer without bashing the Catholic Church??

No, she can’t because she’s Greek Orthodox. From what I’ve seen on these fora, the GO just hate Catholics. I don’t know why - we affectionately call the Orthodox “the other lung”, indicating that we feel we are not complete without them.

Is Greek Orthodox another religion of hate?

 

[twopekinguys]

Most Catholics have full-time jobs, and therefore cannot pray without ceasing in the way that you describe. My work (software development) requires deep and complete concentration. I cannot say the prayer all day - I would get fired.

That being said, even modern professionals can pray without ceasing if we have the mindset that every task we do, no matter how complex or how mundane, is dedicated to the Lord God and done with His glory in mind.

God love you,
Paul

The RCC does have the liturgy of the hours, or the divine office, which is being prayed constantly around the world.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liturgy_of_the_Hours

There are also many cloistered nuns and monks in perpetual prayer.

 

[SingleMomMonica]

Can’t you express your love of the Jesus prayer without bashing the Catholic Church??

Out of the entire post you quote - there is only 1 sentence that even mentions the Catholic Church:

This ‘unceasing prayer’ is what I’m talking about that’s missing in the Catholic Church.

Please explain how you get “Catholic Church bashing” out of that sentence.

 

[Wildkit]

Out of the entire post you quote - there is only 1 sentence that even mentions the Catholic Church:

.

Perhaps the respondent was not refering to just this one post?

 

[ryanoneil]

Now in reading Ignatius, I see the words bishop, presbyter, and deacon come up all of the time.

I am trying to get a handle on what these exactly were and how they relate to what I know.

It seems that the scope of bishop is the city (possibly metropolitan area) as Polycarp was bishop of the Smyrnaeans and Polybius was bishop of the Trallians.

I am trying to find evidence of a level higher than bishop. In one letter there was an ambiguous reference to apostles. I am not sure yet whether the church at this time had what they considered to be apostles and what their scope was.

I have yet to find in the writings of Ignatius any reference to one specific man who was over all of the known Christian church. But then again, I have not gone through all of these letters.

Of course it just occurred to me that Ignatius himself was writing letters to churches in several locations including Rome. So obviously whatever his responsibilities were, he was well known in all of these locations.

Take these for what it is worth. Peter’s successors claiming authority over the Church.

“The Church of God which sojourns in Rome to the Church of God which sojourns in Corinth…If anyone disobey the things which have been said by Him through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger.” Pope Clement of Rome [regn. c A.D.91-101], 1st Epistle to the Corinthians, 1,59:1 (c. A.D. 96).

“Thereupon Victor, who presided over the church at Rome, immediately attempted to cut off from the common unity the parishes of all Asia, with the churches that agreed with them, as heterodox; and he wrote letters and declared all the brethren there wholly excommunicate…” Pope Victor I [regn. A.D. 189-198], in Eusebius EH, 24:9 (A.D. 192).

 

[ryanoneil]

Now in reading Ignatius, I see the words bishop, presbyter, and deacon come up all of the time.

I am trying to get a handle on what these exactly were and how they relate to what I know.

Take this for what it is worth.

‘Follow the bishop, all of you, as Jesus Christ follows his Father, and the presbyterium as the Apostles. As for the deacons, respect them as the Law of God. Let no one do anything with reference to the Church without the bishop. Only that Eucharist may be regarded as legitimate which is celebrated with the bishop or his delegate presiding. Where the bishop is, there let the community be, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.’ Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Symyrnaens 8 (c. A.D. 110).

 

[SingleMomMonica]

No, she can’t because she’s Greek Orthodox. From what I’ve seen on these fora, the GO just hate Catholics. I don’t know why - we affectionately call the Orthodox “the other lung”, indicating that we feel we are not complete without them.

Is Greek Orthodox another religion of hate? NO!

Because Greek Orthodox Christians do not agree with all of the current Catholic Churches teachings, then they must just all hate Catholics. That’s just silly.

PaulDupre, read my post - there is no “Catholic Church bashing” at all!

As to why Catholics affectionately call the Orthodox “the other lung” a term coined, I believe, by Pope John Paul II indicating that “we feel we are not complete without them”: Read the Papal Encyclical: Orientale Lumen issued May 2, 1995 vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_02051995_orientale-lumen_en.html

“the first **need for Catholics **is to be familiar with that tradition, so as to be nourished by it”
“In contemplating it (Christian heritage of the East), before my eyes appear elements of great significance for fuller and more thorough understanding of the Christian experience. These elements are capable of giving a more complete Christian response to the expectations of the men and women of today.”
“Therefore, it is earnestly recommended that Catholics avail themselves more often of the spiritual riches of the Eastern Fathers which lift up the whole man to the contemplation of the divine mysteries.”(19)
“It is as though **man had lost **his perception of belonging to a history which precedes and follows him. This effort to situate oneself between the past and the future, with a grateful heart for the benefits received and for those expected, is offered by the Eastern Churches in particular, with a clear - cut sense of continuity which takes the name of Tradition and of eschatological expectation.”
“The **children of the Catholic Church **already know the ways indicated by the Holy See for achieving this: to know the liturgy of the Eastern Churches;(62) to deepen their knowledge of the spiritual traditions of the Fathers and Doctors of the Christian East,(63) to **follow the example of the Eastern Churches **for the inculturation of the Gospel message; …, who in turn can spread knowledge of the Eastern Churches…These remain very sound recommendations on which I intend to insist with particular force.”
“The words of the West need the words of the East, so that God’s word may ever more clearly reveal its unfathomable riches.” - my bolding

Seems clear that Pope John Paul II felt that the Christian West is lost and does not have the fullness of the Faith and that he wants the West to tap into the rich tradition and spirituality of the East to fill that whole. This Encyclical as well as the term “Other Lung” in reference to the Orthodox Churches shows that. I recommend to you and to all Catholics that you take Pope John Paul II’s recommendations to heart, ponder them and then act on them.

(but watch, now I’ll be accused again of being a “Catholic Church basher” yet I’m using a former Pope of Rome’s own words…)

 

[PaulDupre]

Seems clear that Pope John Paul II felt that the Christian West is lost and does not have the fullness of the Faith and that he wants the West to tap into the rich tradition and spirituality of the East to fill that whole (sic).

It doesn’t sound like that at all. It sounds like he is expressing *fraternal love *for the Eastern churches, something the Eastern churches seem to be devoid of, and admiration for their ancient traditions, something the Orthodox do not have for the Western Church.

This Encyclical as well as the term “Other Lung” in reference to the Orthodox Churches shows that. I recommend to you and to all Catholics that you take Pope John Paul II’s recommendations to heart, ponder them and then act on them.

(but watch, now I’ll be accused again of being a “Catholic Church basher” yet I’m using a former Pope of Rome’s own words…)

No, you’re twisting his words to suit the hateful Orthodox anti-Catholic agenda. Consider that if you must hate the Catholic Church in order to be accepted into Orthodoxy, then perhaps Orthodoxy is not the right choice for you.

But if you want to join a religion based on hatred of others, there are a variety of choices. You could join the Muslims or the Westboro Baptist church or the Nation of Islam or the Ku Klux Klan. They are easily as hateful as the Orthodox seem to be. You should consider them as well.

 

[AmateurPianist]

Well the Orthodox / Catholic disagreements on this thread are interesting. I thought you guys were 99% the same.

Anyway I am working through Ignatius.

Two themes of his letters that pop up are “the Bishop” and “heretics”.

It seems as though that in his time the heretics had very unorthodox views of Christ. Like Jesus did not physically come, was not physically crucified, did not rise from the dead.

Anyway, I am surprised nobody raised this quote from the letter to the Smyrnaeans. I am now researching what might be the best Protestant (non real presence) response to this quote. It has occurred to me that this is in context of heresy, and the heretics that Ignatius was referring to was the Docetians, which is a totally different animal than Protestants.

Anyway, I have day surgery and probably will not be on today and maybe this weekend.

They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer,44 because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death45 in the midst of their disputes. But it were better for them to treat it with respect,46 that they also might rise again. It is fitting, therefore, that ye should keep aloof from such persons, and not to speak of47 them either in private or in public, but to give heed to the prophets, and above all, to the Gospel, in which the passion [of Christ] has been revealed to us, and the resurrection has been fully proved.48 But avoid all divisions, as the beginning of evils.

They are ashamed of the cross; they mock at the passion; they make a jest of the resurrection. They are the offspring of that spirit who is the author of all evil, who led Adam,49 by means of his wife, to transgress the commandment, who slew Abel by the hands of Cain, who fought against Job, who was the accuser of Joshua50 the son of Josedech, who sought to "sift the faith"51 of the apostles, who stirred up the multitude of the Jews against the Lord, who also now "worketh in the children of disobedience;52 from whom the Lord Jesus Christ will deliver us, who prayed that the faith of the apostles might not fail,53 not because He was not able of Himself to preserve it, but because He rejoiced in the pre-eminence of the Father. It is fitting, therefore, that ye should keep aloof from such persons, and neither in private nor in public to talk with54 them; but to give heed to the law, and the prophets, and to those who have preached to you the word of salvation. But flee from all abominable heresies, and those that cause schisms, as the beginning of evils.

 

[SingleMomMonica]

It doesn’t sound like that at all.

Read that Papal Encyclical!

No, you’re twisting his words to suit the hateful Orthodox anti-Catholic agenda.

I did not twist Pope John Paul II’s words, I quoted them directly from the Vatican’s website.

Consider that if you must hate the Catholic Church in order to be accepted into Orthodoxy, then perhaps Orthodoxy is not the right choice for you.

I don’t know where you are getting that strange idea that to be accepted into Orthodoxy someone has to hate the Catholic Church. It’s the one of the strangest things I’ve heard someone say.

But if you want to join a religion based on hatred of others, there are a variety of choices.

The Orthodox Church is not based on hatred of others. It is based on the Teachings of Jesus Christ as handed down by the Apostles and maintained unaltered through out 2,000 years (okay technically 1,976 and 1/2 years) without removing any of Christ’s Teachings and without adding any additional teachings.

You could join the Muslims or the Westboro Baptist church or the Nation of Islam or the Ku Klux Klan.

I am an Orthodox Christian and you are very insulting. Should I now hate all Catholics since you insulted me, of course not! Should I hate Catholics because in the past the Catholic Pope sent a Crusade which sacked Constantinople and destroying Churches, raping nuns and killing priests? No! Do I hate Catholics because they torchured St. Peter the Aleut to death for not rejecting the Orthodox Church and becoming Catholic? NO! The plan and simple fact is that I do not hate Catholics. You can’t make me hate you, although it certainly seems like you want me to. I do not hate Catholics and I do not hate the Catholic Church. I do not agree with all of the Catholic Church’s teachings.

They are easily as hateful as the Orthodox seem to be.

It is because I do not agree with all of the Catholic Church’s teachings that you feel that I am hateful. Wow. Don’t know how else to respond besides, “WOW!”

You should consider them as well.

I will consider none of them.

When I say my Prayer Rule, I pray for you and others like you who find themselves outside of the Orthodox Church each and every day.

Because I love you, when I meet you in heaven, I plan to give you a hard time in a playful manner for a least part of eternity for equating the Bride of Christ, the Orthodox Church, with Hate.

 

[SingleMomMonica]

Anyway I am working through Ignatius.

Two themes of his letters that pop up are “the Bishop” and “heretics”.

It seems as though that in his time the heretics had very unorthodox views of Christ. Like Jesus did not physically come, was not physically crucified, did not rise from the dead.

Anyway, I am surprised nobody raised this quote from the letter to the Smyrnaeans. I am now researching what might be the best Protestant (non real presence) response to this quote. It has occurred to me that this is in context of heresy, and the heretics that Ignatius was referring to was the Docetians, which is a totally different animal than Protestants.

Anyway, I have day surgery and probably will not be on today and maybe this weekend.

Hope your surgery is success and you recover quickly!

If you get a Protestant response to that wonderful quote of St. Ignatius, let me know. That would be an interesting read.