1430 Earthquakes halts forced conversion of Jews

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I saw something on Twitter that I have been unable to confirm or deny from other sources. The claim is that the Catholic Church, under Pope Martin V, attempted to force the mass conversion of Rome’s Jews to Christianity but an earthquake killed the instigators.

I believe this claim to be nonsense. First of all, I can’t find any record of Rome being hit by an earthquake in 1430. Rome periodically gets hit but I couldn’t find any record of one happening at that time.

Second, if God were going to eliminate everyone who was looking to force the Jews to convert, why did the pope survive?

The only mention I could find of this was from a Web site www.chabad.org and I know nothing about this organization. Has anyone heard anything about this?
 
garysibio said:
I saw something on Twitter that I have been unable to confirm or deny from other sources. The claim is that the Catholic Church, under Pope Martin V, attempted to force the mass conversion of Rome’s Jews to Christianity but an earthquake killed the instigators.

I believe this claim to be nonsense. First of all, I can’t find any record of Rome being hit by an earthquake in 1430. Rome periodically gets hit but I couldn’t find any record of one happening at that time.

Second, if God were going to eliminate everyone who was looking to force the Jews to convert, why did the pope survive?

The only mention I could find of this was from a Web site www.chabad.org and I know nothing about this organization. Has anyone heard anything about this?
Click to expand...
The Chabad-Lubavitch sect now is most affiliated with the late Rabbi Schneerson chabad.org/therebbe/article_cdo/aid/244372/jewish/A-Brief-Biography.htm

It’s followers eagerly seek out non-practicing Jews to return them to practicing Judaism, especially the Hasidic variety they represent. Once, in New York, one of them approached me, because I have a fairly Jewish appearance, and he looked at me skeptically when I told him I wasn’t Jewish. But it’s a very active & influential group, and they are very eager to proselytize and return Jews to their natal religion.

I have a real admiration for this Russian Jewish leader who arrived in the US the day AFTER the Nazis invaded Russia. It’s not surprising that his followers take this to be a sign of divine providence.

But they do promote the anti-Catholic stories that are much engraved in that culture, and and those are false stories, as much as any of the anti-Catholic stories peddled by Voltaire or by Protestant writers in England & America. A pope wouldn’t force a conversion of the Jews because such a conversion would have no force as a conversion. The problem for Medieval Christians was the phenomenon of false conversion, when Jews would be welcomed as converts but were doing it for convenience or even in order to cause confusion & harm from positions from authority.
 
"Jaysuitical:
The problem for Medieval Christians was the phenomenon of false conversion, when Jews would be welcomed as converts but were doing it for convenience or even in order to cause confusion & harm from positions from authority.
Click to expand...
I rather doubt Jews can be faulted for maliciously plotting to convert in order to cause confusion and harm to those in authority. I suspect that instead those who falsely converted did so to avoid onerous and discriminatory taxes and other policies that were the rule of the day.
Jaysuitical said:
A pope wouldn’t force a conversion of the Jews because such a conversion would have no force as a conversion.
Click to expand...
Ultimately a leader is responsible for the actions of those under him. I don’t claim to know a great deal about the history of conversion of Jews, but it would be ludicrous to deny that there have been forced conversions in history. It’s not plausible that these were all the responsibility of secular authorities. So I don’t think we can dismiss the role of the Church out of hand, just because a forced conversion would not be valid.
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garysibio:
I believe this claim to be nonsense. First of all, I can’t find any record of Rome being hit by an earthquake in 1430. Rome periodically gets hit but I couldn’t find any record of one happening at that time.

Second, if God were going to eliminate everyone who was looking to force the Jews to convert, why did the pope survive?
Click to expand...
Assuming your list of earthquakes is comprehensive, we obviously can’t take the claim at face value. But it’s possible there is a grain of truth to it. Earthquakes, especially severe ones such as the 1755 Lisbon quake, can seriously disrupt bureaucracies, and if there were some organized forced conversion underway, it would have been a bureaucratic process. It’s possible that such a quake did disrupt a forced conversion (or what was perceived as a forced conversion), and may even have killed an official or two. Such a story could have been passed down over the years, with some facts getting contorted here and there. If that is what happened, I’m curious whether the year 1430 is significant.
 
Jaysuitical said:
The Chabad-Lubavitch sect now is most affiliated with the late Rabbi Schneerson chabad.org/therebbe/article_cdo/aid/244372/jewish/A-Brief-Biography.htm

It’s followers eagerly seek out non-practicing Jews to return them to practicing Judaism, especially the Hasidic variety they represent. Once, in New York, one of them approached me, because I have a fairly Jewish appearance, and he looked at me skeptically when I told him I wasn’t Jewish. But it’s a very active & influential group, and they are very eager to proselytize and return Jews to their natal religion.

I have a real admiration for this Russian Jewish leader who arrived in the US the day AFTER the Nazis invaded Russia. It’s not surprising that his followers take this to be a sign of divine providence.

But they do promote the anti-Catholic stories that are much engraved in that culture, and and those are false stories, as much as any of the anti-Catholic stories peddled by Voltaire or by Protestant writers in England & America. A pope wouldn’t force a conversion of the Jews because such a conversion would have no force as a conversion. The problem for Medieval Christians was the phenomenon of false conversion, when Jews would be welcomed as converts but were doing it for convenience or even in order to cause confusion & harm from positions from authority.
Click to expand...
I’d heard of the Lubavitchers. They are active in Chicago where I live, in fact, they have a synagogue not too far from my house. I didn’t realize they were so anti-Catholic, however.
 
Digitonomy said:
I rather doubt Jews can be faulted for maliciously plotting to convert in order to cause confusion and harm to those in authority. I suspect that instead those who falsely converted did so to avoid onerous and discriminatory taxes and other policies that were the rule of the day.Ultimately a leader is responsible for the actions of those under him. I don’t claim to know a great deal about the history of conversion of Jews, but it would be ludicrous to deny that there have been forced conversions in history. It’s not plausible that these were all the responsibility of secular authorities. So I don’t think we can dismiss the role of the Church out of hand, just because a forced conversion would not be valid.Assuming your list of earthquakes is comprehensive, we obviously can’t take the claim at face value. But it’s possible there is a grain of truth to it. Earthquakes, especially severe ones such as the 1755 Lisbon quake, can seriously disrupt bureaucracies, and if there were some organized forced conversion underway, it would have been a bureaucratic process. It’s possible that such a quake did disrupt a forced conversion (or what was perceived as a forced conversion), and may even have killed an official or two. Such a story could have been passed down over the years, with some facts getting contorted here and there. If that is what happened, I’m curious whether the year 1430 is significant.
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I don’t have a list of earthquakes, I just tried a few different searches on Google.

In digging around it appears that there were several attempts at forced conversions in some parts of Europe but they were not sanctioned by the hierarchy and the ones I read about were in the 13th century. Obviously these “conversions” would not have been valid but even many of the priests at this time were not well-educated.
 
garysibio said:
I saw something on Twitter that I have been unable to confirm or deny from other sources. The claim is that the Catholic Church, under Pope Martin V, attempted to force the mass conversion of Rome’s Jews to Christianity but an earthquake killed the instigators.

I believe this claim to be nonsense. First of all, I can’t find any record of Rome being hit by an earthquake in 1430. Rome periodically gets hit but I couldn’t find any record of one happening at that time.

Second, if God were going to eliminate everyone who was looking to force the Jews to convert, why did the pope survive?

The only mention I could find of this was from a Web site www.chabad.org and I know nothing about this organization. Has anyone heard anything about this?
Click to expand...
I dug around and found no earthquake at the time in or near Rome (or at least an earthquake of any consequence):

earthquakes.findthedata.org/d/b/Southern-Europe

What I did find about Pope Martin V was this:

skepticism.org/timeline/february-history/2926-papal-bull-to-protect-the-jews-confirmed-by-pope-martin-v.html

I haven’t ever seen or heard of this until now, and until I see conclusive proof to the contrary, I believe that it’s just nonsense.

By the way, I’m an Orthodox Jew.
 
YKohen said:
I dug around and found no earthquake at the time in or near Rome (or at least an earthquake of any consequence):

earthquakes.findthedata.org/d/b/Southern-Europe

What I did find about Pope Martin V was this:

skepticism.org/timeline/february-history/2926-papal-bull-to-protect-the-jews-confirmed-by-pope-martin-v.html

I haven’t ever seen or heard of this until now, and until I see conclusive proof to the contrary, I believe that it’s just nonsense.

By the way, I’m an Orthodox Jew.
Click to expand...
You can also look at the Catholic Encyclopedia entry on him: newadvent.org/cathen/09725a.htm
 
I found this here:
Now an international team, including scientists from the UK, wants to drill down inside the caldera to try to better understand exactly why part of it has risen 10ft since 1969. The area at the epicentre of the swelling has seen whole streets of houses crumble and collapse. The threat is imminent. The last time the ground rose like this (between 1430 and 1538) there was an eruption that caused the formation of a new volcano.
dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1342820/Vesuviuss-big-daddy-supervolcano-Campi-Flegrei-near-Naples-threatens-Europe.html
Click to expand...
As to “Chabadniks” (no pun intended), I know two people that met with their Chabad centers, one in Germany for Shabbes, and one in Korea for two weeks. Both enjoyed their time with them and so I also want to go to a Chabad center and celebrate Shabbath with them one day.

What I know about them is that they welcome Jews of all observances, may someone be ultra-orthodox or completely liberal it doesn’t matter to them, and I so embrace this attitide 🙂
 
Jaysuitical said:
The Chabad-Lubavitch sect now is most affiliated with the late Rabbi Schneerson chabad.org/therebbe/article_cdo/aid/244372/jewish/A-Brief-Biography.htm

It’s followers eagerly seek out non-practicing Jews to return them to practicing Judaism, especially the Hasidic variety they represent. Once, in New York, one of them approached me, because I have a fairly Jewish appearance, and he looked at me skeptically when I told him I wasn’t Jewish. But it’s a very active & influential group, and they are very eager to proselytize and return Jews to their natal religion.

I have a real admiration for this Russian Jewish leader who arrived in the US the day AFTER the Nazis invaded Russia. It’s not surprising that his followers take this to be a sign of divine providence.

But they do promote the anti-Catholic stories that are much engraved in that culture, and and those are false stories, as much as any of the anti-Catholic stories peddled by Voltaire or by Protestant writers in England & America. A pope wouldn’t force a conversion of the Jews because such a conversion would have no force as a conversion. The problem for Medieval Christians was the phenomenon of false conversion, when Jews would be welcomed as converts but were doing it for convenience or even in order to cause confusion & harm from positions from authority.
Click to expand...
While the cry throughout the centuries of the wild murderous mobs was “convert or die”, the intention and wish was to murder the Jews, not bring about their conversion. Neither did the Jews have any intention of breaking their eternal covenant with God. So, for example, during the Crusades, the result was that one quarter to one half of European Jewry, men, women, children, babies were ruthlessly slaughtered and the Jews steadfastly refused to even consider converting. It should be of no surprise that all discussions concerning the abilities and contributions of modern Ashkenazic Jewry traces back to these survivors who stood so steadfastly with God and the eternal covenant.

The major exception to similar murderous acts was the reaction to the massacre of Jews beginning on March 15th,1391 and continuing throughout Spain that year. Thousands of Jews were murdered to the usual cry of “convert or die”. However this time, instead of believing in God and the eternal covenant, some 40,000 Jews subsequently converted to Christianity. God’s punishment was exacting. Every single Jew on the Iberian peninsula will be murdered, converted or exiled in the Spanish Inquisition. The thousand year old Jewish community will be obliterated.
 
chosen_people said:
While the cry throughout the centuries of the wild murderous mobs was “convert or die”, the intention and wish was to murder the Jews, not bring about their conversion. Neither did the Jews have any intention of breaking their eternal covenant with God. So, for example, during the Crusades, the result was that one quarter to one half of European Jewry, men, women, children, babies were ruthlessly slaughtered and the Jews steadfastly refused to even consider converting. It should be of no surprise that all discussions concerning the abilities and contributions of modern Ashkenazic Jewry traces back to these survivors who stood so steadfastly with God and the eternal covenant.

The major exception to similar murderous acts was the reaction to the massacre of Jews beginning on March 15th,1391 and continuing throughout Spain that year. Thousands of Jews were murdered to the usual cry of “convert or die”. However this time, instead of believing in God and the eternal covenant, some 40,000 Jews subsequently converted to Christianity. God’s punishment was exacting. Every single Jew on the Iberian peninsula will be murdered, converted or exiled in the Spanish Inquisition. The thousand year old Jewish community will be obliterated.
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Not to excuse either but let’s also remember that Jews persecuted and killed Christians also. Neither group has clean hands.
 
garysibio said:
Not to excuse either but let’s also remember that Jews persecuted and killed Christians also. Neither group has clean hands.
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Would you be so kind as to list all the murders and persecutions of Christians by Jews in the last thousand years, what was done and where?
 
chosen_people said:
Would you be so kind as to list all the murders and persecutions of Christians by Jews in the last thousand years, what was done and where?
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I did not specify the last 1,000 years. Why should the Jews who persecuted and martyred Christians in the first century AD slide? Do you also want a list of all the Catholics who gave up their lives to protect Jews from the Nazis also or are you only interested in making the Church look bad?
 
garysibio said:
I did not specify the last 1,000 years. Why should the Jews who persecuted and martyred Christians in the first century AD slide? Do you also want a list of all the Catholics who gave up their lives to protect Jews from the Nazis also or are you only interested in making the Church look bad?
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I know that light anti-semitism makes individual Catholics look bad- question is, does that also make their Church look bad?
 
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