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dreamfleur
Guest
I’m looking for an explanation from a Catholic point of view. Who are the 144,000? And who is the “remnant” of Israel?
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Classicist
Guest
The text itself is actually pretty clear.
In Revelation 7:1-8 the full salvation of Israel comes to pass: that is, members from every tribe of Israel have accepted Jesus as the Messiah & Lord. Note that there are twelve tribes, and 12 x 12 = 144. It’s a symbol of the fullness of Israel finally coming to God through the true Messiah, and all things being put to rights. In verse 9, we see the great multitude of Gentiles who could not be numbered. Both groups have received the Salvation of God; both are the Saints washed with the Lamb’s blood.
The Remnant is a firstly term from the 1st Book of Kings. Elijah despairs that all Israel has fallen to the idol-worshipers. God tells him to man up, because 7 000 were left who had not bowed the kneel to the idols. Any “remnant” term that reoccurs later in the Bible must be seen in this hopeful light.
In Revelation 7:1-8 the full salvation of Israel comes to pass: that is, members from every tribe of Israel have accepted Jesus as the Messiah & Lord. Note that there are twelve tribes, and 12 x 12 = 144. It’s a symbol of the fullness of Israel finally coming to God through the true Messiah, and all things being put to rights. In verse 9, we see the great multitude of Gentiles who could not be numbered. Both groups have received the Salvation of God; both are the Saints washed with the Lamb’s blood.
The Remnant is a firstly term from the 1st Book of Kings. Elijah despairs that all Israel has fallen to the idol-worshipers. God tells him to man up, because 7 000 were left who had not bowed the kneel to the idols. Any “remnant” term that reoccurs later in the Bible must be seen in this hopeful light.
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pablope
Guest
From Catholic Answers:
Quote:
Q: The Jehovah’s Witnesses stress the 144,000. What 's the real scoop on this number?
A: The 144,000 people described in two passages of the Bible: Revelation 7:1-8 and 14:1-5. According to the first passage, they are “the servants of . . . God” (7:3) who are pictured as being sealed upon their foreheads. Verses 4-8 depict there being twelve thousand sealed from each of the twelve tribes of Israel, giving a total of 144,000.
In Revelation 14:1 we are told that the seal on their foreheads is Christ’s and his Father’s name. The 144,000 are with Jesus, and they sing a unique song of worship, which no one else can learn (14:3). In 14:4-5 we are told more about their identity: “It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are chaste [Greek, “virgins”]; it is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes; these have been redeemed from mankind as first fruits for God and the Lamb, and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are spotless.”
The Witnesses say these people represent the Church of Christ, the Israel of God, and this is a common view among Bible scholars, one that has had a long history in the interpretation of Revelation. The 144,000 are taken as a symbol of the Christian faithful. It is what Witnesses say next that is bizarre.
Supposedly God began collecting the 144,000 at Pentecost in AD. 33 but stopped collecting them in 1935, when the full number was reached. Some of the 144,000 are still living, and they are all Jehovah’s Witnesses. As of 1986 there were only about 9,000 of the 144,000 left alive. Since the Jehovah’s Witnesses are a larger group, possessing several million members, how are the rest of the Witnesses regarded? As non-members of the body of Christ. They will still be saved in the end, but they will not be part of the body and will not go to heaven. They are considered part of the “great crowd” mentioned in Revelation 7:9-10.
In Jehovah’s Witness “kingdom halls” (church buildings) only members of the 144,000 are allowed to receive communion when the Lord’s Supper is celebrated (which is done infrequently). Sometimes kingdom halls celebrate the Lord’s Supper and no one receives communion since none of the 144,000 are present.
Needless to say, the Witness’s view is riddled with holes. When discussing the 144,000 with Witnesses, make them realize that they are being inconsistent in how they interpret the texts where the 144,000 are mentioned. They insist that there are exactly 144,000 of these people, no more and no less, making it a literal number, but they interpret every other detail about this group in a symbolic manner.
If they were consistent, they would have to conclude that the 144,000 are Jews, drawn equally from the twelve tribes of Israel (most of which are now unrecognizably lost), that they are all male virgins who do not lie and who have two names literally written on their foreheads. The problem is that almost none of the 9,000 Witnesses supposed to be members of this group fit this description. Many of them are married Gentile women with children, and they presumably have bent the truth more than a few times in their lives.
The only detail from the text that the Witnesses take literally is the number. Every other detail of the text is taken non-literally. They should either take all of the details literally or see the 144,000 as a symbol of the Church as a whole (as does virtually everyone else).
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concretecamper
Guest
And I have heard the 10x10x10 is the perfect number in Hebrew…so 144 x 1000…apocalyptic writing at it’s best
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dreamfleur
Guest
I’m aware of the JW view. I just wanted to know how the Catholic interpret this part of Revelation. The SDA have their “unique” view as well, but I have heard other Christians say that these are literal Jews that will convert in the end times thus fulfilling that they have always been God’s chosen people.
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yogosans14
Guest
Hello, I believe they think its virgin jews while the JWs (my family is mostly JWs) believe that its a literal number of anoited people who have a “heavenly calling” where they will reign as priests or something with Christ while the rest of the “little flock” will remain on earth forver
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RBoquist
Guest
This is reasoning for Catholics, against “Jws”.
Topic: Single Hope vs. Two Hopes
The Watchtower teaches that the church today is divided into two categories, the first being a relatively small group of 144,000 baptized witnesses, the second consisting of everyone else who will be saved. The 144,000 will go to heaven to rule with God and Christ, and the rest shall live on an earthly paradise.
My Argument: The first problem that arises comes from the words of Paul at Ephesians 4:5 when he says we have “one hope,” that is to be with our lord and savior. The argument I hear the most at this verse is that both groups will be with God, but when one group is with him in person and the other in spirit, than we end with two separate hopes (see also 1Co 12:13). The repetition of the word one throughout the passage would lead the reader to logically assume it is a perfectly identical hope.
To that end Christ also states at John 10:16, “and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.” This verse in its entirety indicates that there will be a joining of two flocks, not a perpetual separation. We see this yet again at Romans 6:8 that, “if we are dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live together with Christ,” this once again has no exception, if we are saved then our hope is to live with Christ.
Secondly, If we jump to Revelation 21:2, “And I, John saw the holy city, the New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, as a bride adorned for her husband.” The first detail here comes out of the first part of the verse, “the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,” This would indicate that New Jerusalem is going to be on earth. The second detail comes at the end of the verse “as a bride adorned for her husband,” in this case and every case where the symbolism of the bride is used, it is the church. So to this point we have the Church (not a place or city) coming out of heaven to meet Christ, who just defeated the devil (see chapter 20). Now in Rev 21:3 we find that God is living among the Church that is coming out of heaven (these are those who have already died and been saved), and moving to Rev 21:4 we can see that God shall wipe away pain and death for those yet to be rewarded. [In the context here continuing from judgment in chapter 20, the good have been judged but nothing has happened to them until Rev 21:4].Now continuing to Rev 21:22-23 we find that Christ is also living among the church.
To recapitulate to this point, we have the Church, God, and Christ, living with each other in person. The church is coming out of heaven down to the earth and it has collected the survivors of judgment day. Now that all of this has been stated I can move on to the key point here. In Rev 21:27 we see that only those whose names are written in the book of life may enter into the city. If we backtrack to Rev 20:15 we see that all of those whose names are not written in the book of life are going to the second death. This leaves no one outside of “new Jerusalem” aside from those who have gone to the second death. This indicates that there are only two classes of people, those who are saved, and those who are not.
Response arguments:
Watchtower: If everyone goes to the same place what does the number 144,000 signify?
tribes, twelve apostles, etc. In the Jewish context a number multiplied by itself or a thousand symbolizes perfection. So if we take God’s number and multiply it by itself we got the number 144. If we take it a step further ad them multiply it by 1000 we reach 144,000. This signifies that perfection only God is capable of doing will be at work to win people over from the grip of sin.
Side note: On top of all this I also fail to see how declaring the number of heaven bound people, does not force one into agreement with predestination. If God gives out the number of those going to heaven, but then no one makes it there, he would be wrong about the number. Being right all the time is part of God’s nature, so the only way to ensure this (assuming 144,000 is a literal number) would be forcing people to go to one place or another. This relation between the two places this doctrine in opposition to the entire Bible.
Topic: Single Hope vs. Two Hopes
The Watchtower teaches that the church today is divided into two categories, the first being a relatively small group of 144,000 baptized witnesses, the second consisting of everyone else who will be saved. The 144,000 will go to heaven to rule with God and Christ, and the rest shall live on an earthly paradise.
My Argument: The first problem that arises comes from the words of Paul at Ephesians 4:5 when he says we have “one hope,” that is to be with our lord and savior. The argument I hear the most at this verse is that both groups will be with God, but when one group is with him in person and the other in spirit, than we end with two separate hopes (see also 1Co 12:13). The repetition of the word one throughout the passage would lead the reader to logically assume it is a perfectly identical hope.
To that end Christ also states at John 10:16, “and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.” This verse in its entirety indicates that there will be a joining of two flocks, not a perpetual separation. We see this yet again at Romans 6:8 that, “if we are dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live together with Christ,” this once again has no exception, if we are saved then our hope is to live with Christ.
Secondly, If we jump to Revelation 21:2, “And I, John saw the holy city, the New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, as a bride adorned for her husband.” The first detail here comes out of the first part of the verse, “the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,” This would indicate that New Jerusalem is going to be on earth. The second detail comes at the end of the verse “as a bride adorned for her husband,” in this case and every case where the symbolism of the bride is used, it is the church. So to this point we have the Church (not a place or city) coming out of heaven to meet Christ, who just defeated the devil (see chapter 20). Now in Rev 21:3 we find that God is living among the Church that is coming out of heaven (these are those who have already died and been saved), and moving to Rev 21:4 we can see that God shall wipe away pain and death for those yet to be rewarded. [In the context here continuing from judgment in chapter 20, the good have been judged but nothing has happened to them until Rev 21:4].Now continuing to Rev 21:22-23 we find that Christ is also living among the church.
To recapitulate to this point, we have the Church, God, and Christ, living with each other in person. The church is coming out of heaven down to the earth and it has collected the survivors of judgment day. Now that all of this has been stated I can move on to the key point here. In Rev 21:27 we see that only those whose names are written in the book of life may enter into the city. If we backtrack to Rev 20:15 we see that all of those whose names are not written in the book of life are going to the second death. This leaves no one outside of “new Jerusalem” aside from those who have gone to the second death. This indicates that there are only two classes of people, those who are saved, and those who are not.
Response arguments:
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Watchtower: If there is not going to be an earthly hope why then does Matt 5:4 say that the meek shall inherit the land?
My response: Meek in modern day English means “those with humility”, and humility is required to be “Pure of heart.” According to Matt 5:8 the Pure of heart see God, who is in heaven. In the Final state of existence we see the Church in heaven and the Church on earth becoming perfectly united (Rev 21). In turn Heaven and Earth are made new and united through Christ’s Church (Rev 21 and 22)
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My response: In the Jewish context the number 12 is God’s number, twelve
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Witnesses: Wouldn’t people going to heaven signify a change in God’s plan?
My Response: According to Mal. 3:6 God is unchanging, therefore his plan for man cannot Change. So man’s reward must be similar to The Garden of Eden. To start, God is present in both (Rev 21:3, 22. Gen 3:8). The Tree of life is there (Rev 22:2, 14. Gen 2:9, 3:22,24). God’s original intention was that man should have a profound loving and personal relationship with him. This being the case we will have an everlasting (Rev 22:3), personal (Rev 21:3, 4, 7), and face to face relationship with God (Rev 22:4).
On the grounds of committing a logical fallacy one cannot argue against something that is required to support their position. One cannot argue that man not being entirely earthly contradicts Scripture, when also arguing that some men will become spiritual creatures.- Status