po18guy
Well-known member
You say so. Your complete agreement with the article written by a dissenting Catholic does cause one to wonder, though.
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laszlo
Guest
I praye the Rosary since 1943 and always added after the Glory the prayer:
O my Jesus, forgive us of our sins. Save us from the fires of hell. Lead all souls into heaven, especially those in most need of thy mercy.
I learned sometimes in the fifties that this was approved only in the 1930’s.
The Church has the loosing and binding power about almost everything pertaining the religion, excluding naturally the infallible statements, like the Creed. The Liturgy is not infallible statement, and the Rosary is just a devotion, not even part of the Liturgy. No one if forced to pray the Rosary, or any of its part.
I am always surprised why some people or newspapers play Adolf Hitler or Jusuph Stalin, and want to forbade things what are free. Gos is on the side of the freedom.
O my Jesus, forgive us of our sins. Save us from the fires of hell. Lead all souls into heaven, especially those in most need of thy mercy.
I learned sometimes in the fifties that this was approved only in the 1930’s.
The Church has the loosing and binding power about almost everything pertaining the religion, excluding naturally the infallible statements, like the Creed. The Liturgy is not infallible statement, and the Rosary is just a devotion, not even part of the Liturgy. No one if forced to pray the Rosary, or any of its part.
I am always surprised why some people or newspapers play Adolf Hitler or Jusuph Stalin, and want to forbade things what are free. Gos is on the side of the freedom.
po18guy
Well-known member
Well said.
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pnewton
Guest
I do not think this website is a group. It appears to be nothing but an individual’s website, or a group of individuals, that posts articles of interest to them, or that they wrote. We know what they are not, and that is any affiliation with the diocese, but no where do they tell you who they are.
The article itself I found illogical and its points irrelevant. Perhaps others may have gotten something from it.
The article itself I found illogical and its points irrelevant. Perhaps others may have gotten something from it.
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PJM
Guest
***The goof father [and indeed he is! is simply WRONG in this instance.
*The Code of Canon Law, long supported by ***Tradition *clearly proclaims that TnheSupreme Pontiff cannot teach in error on ANY matter touching Faith and or Morals. Notice futher that His Holiness the late GREAT JP II did not “change” the Rosary; BUT rather ADDED TO it! Not an insignifient point.
**BOOK III.
THE TEACHING FUNCTION OF THE CHURCH LIBER III. DE ECCLESIAE MUNERE DOCENDI**
Can. 747 §1. The Church, to which Christ the Lord has entrusted the deposit of faith so that with the assistance of the Holy Spirit it might protect the revealed truth reverently, examine it more closely, and proclaim and expound it faithfully, has the duty and innate right, independent of any human power whatsoever, to preach the gospel to all peoples, also using the means of social communication proper to it.
**§2. **It belongs to the Church always and everywhere to announce moral principles, even about the social order, and to render judgment concerning any human affairs insofar as the fundamental rights of the human person or the salvation of souls requires it.
Can. 748 §1. All persons are bound to seek the truth in those things which regard God and his Church and by virtue of divine law are bound by the obligation and possess the right of embracing and observing the truth which they have come to know.
§2. No one is ever permitted to coerce persons to embrace the Catholic faith against their conscience.
Can. 749 §1. By virtue of his office, the Supreme Pontiff possesses infallibility in teaching when as the supreme pastor and teacher of all the Christian faithful, who strengthens his brothers and sisters in the faith, he proclaims by definitive act that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held.
§2. The college of bishops also possesses infallibility in teaching when the bishops gathered together in an ecumenical council exercise the magisterium as teachers and judges of faith and morals who declare for the universal Church that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held definitively; or when dispersed throughout the world but preserving the bond of communion among themselves and with the successor of Peter and teaching authentically together with the Roman Pontiff matters of faith or morals, they agree that a particular proposition is to be held definitively.
§3. No doctrine is understood as defined infallibly unless this is manifestly evident.
Can. 750 §1. A person must believe with divine and Catholic faith all those things contained in the word of God, written or handed on, that is, in the one deposit of faith entrusted to the Church, and at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn magisterium of the Church or by its ordinary and universal magisterium which is manifested by the common adherence of the Christian faithful under the leadership of the sacred magisterium; therefore all are bound to avoid any doctrines whatsoever contrary to them.
**§2. Each and every thing which is proposed definitively by the magisterium of the Church concerning the doctrine of faith and morals, that is, each and every thing which is required to safeguard reverently and to expound faithfully the same deposit of faith, is also to be firm-ly embraced and retained; therefore, one who rejects those propositions which are to be held definitively is opposed to the doctrine of the Catholic Church.
Can. 751** Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.
Can. 752 Although not an assent of faith, a religious submission of the intellect and will must be given to a doctrine which the Supreme Pontiff or the college of bishops declares concerning faith or morals when they exercise the authentic magisterium, even if they do not intend to proclaim it by definitive act; therefore, the Christian faithful are to take care to avoid those things which do not agree with it.
**Can. 753 **Although the bishops who are in communion with the head and members of the college, whether individually or joined together in conferences of bishops or in particular councils, do not possess infallibility in teaching, they are authentic teachers and instructors of the faith for the Christian faithful entrusted to their care; the Christian faithful are bound to adhere with religious submission of mind to the authentic magisterium of their bishops.
**Can. 754 **All the Christian faithful are obliged to observe the constitutions and decrees which the legitimate authority of the Church issues in order to propose doctrine and to proscribe erroneous opinions, particularly those which the Roman Pontiff or the college of bishops puts forth.
po18guy
Well-known member
It all seems to trace directly to John Vennari, a man of whom I cannot tell what he is, but only what he isn’t: happy. Each of his writings that I have encountered is sharply and consistently critical of the Church hierarchy. As much as he lambastes Pope John Paul II, I must note that our last Pope is on his way to canonization, while Mr. Vennari remains an obscure, obstinate and apparently embittered fringe element in Catholicism. 'Nuff said.
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Robert_Burns
Guest
Are there 150 or 200 Psalms in Scripture? The Holy Rosary came originally from the Marian Psalter which came from the Psalter.
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Hesychios
Guest
I don’t think that is correct.
The rosary evolved organically from an essentially peasant practice inspired by monastic chanting of the real psalter, which is 150 full psalms of David. The rosary originated as a substitute (not an evolved form or an imitation) with the prayer Jesus taught us: the PaterNoster, said 150 times. The switch to 150 Hail Mary’s came later and the meditations (or mysteries) were added later still, in the 14th or 15th century, by a monk, not by a Pope. I think the form of the prayers became standardized when indulgences were awarded for it’s recitation, probably around the time of the Council of Trent. A person can still pray any of the older forms or modify them according to preference, there is nothing at all wrong with that but the indulgence does not apply.
The ‘Marian Psalter’ seems to be often used as another name for a rosary, but it’s not a psalter at all and never really was, even when it did not use the Hail Mary and was only a repetition of Our Fathers. In other words, ‘Marian Psalter’ is a misnomer, a misleading title.
There was also a separate and distinct “Psalter of the Blessed Virgin Mary” composed in the 13th century which might be confused with the ‘Marian Psalter’. It can probably be considered a genuine psalter because each part has a poetic form resembling a psalm, each composition is an imitation of the real psalms of David directed toward Saint Mary instead of God the Father, but the rosary does not derive from that work. The author is known to be Saint Bonaventure.
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diggerdomer
Guest
So they’re not schismatics. Thanks for the clarification.
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diggerdomer
Guest
Is there some official recognition that the Catholic you refer to is “dissenting” or do you mean someone who simply thinks and/or prays differently than you do?
I’m trying to understand if you really mean formal, theological (and canonical) dissent, or if you simply disagree with another member of the faithful. thanks for any help.
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Robert_Burns
Guest
Not according to St Dominic and the Dominican Order - , St Dominic was credited with destruction of the Albingensian Heresy through the use of the Marian Psalter which he taught in his evangelic efforts and passed along to the Domincan Order. Pope St Pius the V , also a Dominican (The first Dominican Pope) used the very same devotion to destroy the Muslim Fleet at La Panto.
So people can argune about what is or isnt the Holy rosary until they are blue in the face but if anyone wants to know - seek out the Dominicans. It came from them.
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Alexander_Roman
Guest
Actually, I have asked Dominicans about this and they said that while they piously believe that our Lady gave the Rosary to St Dominic, there is no reference to this in the earliest versions of the life of Dominic himself.
At best, this was a personal revelation of the importance of the Rosary given to Dominic by Our Lady. The Rosary was used by Christians, as Hesychios stated, for centuries before, especially in the Thebaid by monks who repeated Our Fathers and Hail Mary’s instead of the psalms. St Paul of Thebes carried two bags, one with 300 pebbles and the other empty. As he said his prayers, he placed a pebble signifying one prayer into the empty bag until all 300 of them were in the formerly empty bag and so on.
To this day, old Orthodox monasteries still pray the Rosary and they knew nothing about St Dominic.
Alex
At best, this was a personal revelation of the importance of the Rosary given to Dominic by Our Lady. The Rosary was used by Christians, as Hesychios stated, for centuries before, especially in the Thebaid by monks who repeated Our Fathers and Hail Mary’s instead of the psalms. St Paul of Thebes carried two bags, one with 300 pebbles and the other empty. As he said his prayers, he placed a pebble signifying one prayer into the empty bag until all 300 of them were in the formerly empty bag and so on.
To this day, old Orthodox monasteries still pray the Rosary and they knew nothing about St Dominic.
Alex
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Alexander_Roman
Guest
Well, there is the other argument that the “Psalter of Mary” has less to do with the number of Davidic Psalms but with the psalter itself - a musical instrument of ten strings. This would explain the ten Hail Mary decades.
At the same time, Christians never limited themselves to 15 decades only. As we can see from the writings of such Marian saints as St Louis de Montfort, additional decades were the norm. The Catholic Recusants in Britain published their Rosary Confraternity “Rules” and listed many other mysteries to be prayed daily: five decades for the Five wounds of Christ, seven for the seven joys and seven sorrows of our Lady, 14 for the stations of the Cross, nine for the nine choirs of angels, etc.
Montfort himself lists an additional six or seven decades in honour of the years our Lady lived on earth.
Also, at no time did Pope John Paul II ever insist on the Luminous mysteries apart from a recommendation that they be prayed on Thursdays by those who say five decades daily.
For me, the Luminous mysteries provide an excellent segue from the time of Christ’s Childhood to His Passion. The last two Luminous Mysteries are, in fact, connected with our Lord’s Passion, the Transfiguration to show the disciples that Christ’s Passion is voluntary and to indicate what it leads to, while the Last Supper/Eucharist is integrally united with the Passion. For the third Luminous Mystery, I just include a reference to each of the Beatitudes in the Hail Mary decade. The Wedding at Cana is a great meditation on our Lady’s role as our Intercessor and Mother.
Alex
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barb_finnegan
Guest
I echo your last sentence!
Venerable John Paul II had the Luminous Mysteries as ‘suggestions’. They were not mandatory.
If you don’t want to use them, you don’t have to, simply put.
I stick with the 15 mysteries myself.
Yeah, John Vennari and his cohorts at Catholic Family News can and do get under one’s skin at times. He’s awfully negative.
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pnewton
Guest
It doesn’t really matter. The Rosary is not part of Sacred Scriptures and has no mandatory tie to Scripture.
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