150,000 converts this year at Easter

[distracted]

i wish Angie and Brad would admit they are closet Catholics (sort of )…

what gives with those 2???



Angie’s father Jon Voigt is supposed to be or was or soemthing … Catholic…

 

[Highwayhound]

To the converts - today is Holy Thursday. I have long held today in high regard. There is something truly special about mass on Holy Thursday. I hope you remeber your first Holy Thursday well.:harp:

 

[Peter_J]

It also means that they wouldn’t demand acceptance of it as a test of one’s Christianity. Seriously, if there was a certain set of standards during the time of the Apostles that made one a Christian, let’s just call them A, B, and C, would it be reasonable to come along in the next generation and say, OK, we know it used to be just A, B, and C, but now we’re going to add X, Y, and Z as requirements for being a Christian?

No, not “as requirements for being a Christian”. But it might be reasonable to add X, Y, and Z as requirements for being a member of the Church in good standing.

Again here I think you’ve misunderstood or been misinformed about what the RCC teaches. For example, I would never claim that you can’t be a Christian unless you agree with the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.

 

[ralphinal]

No, not “as requirements for being a Christian”. But it might be reasonable to add X, Y, and Z as requirements for being a member of the Church in good standing.

Again here I think you’ve misunderstood or been misinformed about what the RCC teaches. For example, I would never claim that you can’t be a Christian unless you agree with the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.

And I take a harder line, for me it would depend on why you deny it.

 

[ckempston]

What did the Church say about those who preached that gentile converts must be circumcised?

Acts 15
The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings. 24We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. 25So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— 26men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing.

Do you have authorization? If not, who does?

Um, the Apostles. Or are you claiming the church is the “improver of the Apostles” to steal a phrase from Irenaeus?

 

[AliciaCL]

Considering the size of the Catholic church, that number is somewhat of a joke, statistically speaking. Indeed, heaven rejoices over one sinner that repents, but that would be an impressive figure for a church with less than a million members. That would be approximately 15%, and considering most “conversions” happen at Easter in Catholicism, well, honestly, is this really supposed to be impressive? A church that boasts 1.5 billion members growing by .001%? Wow. That means that 99.999% of members are ineffectual in their outreach.

The tiny percentage of converts to RCC matters not. Remember the story of the mustard seed?

 

[ckempston]

No, not “as requirements for being a Christian”. But it might be reasonable to add X, Y, and Z as requirements for being a member of the Church in good standing.

Again here I think you’ve misunderstood or been misinformed about what the RCC teaches. For example, I would never claim that you can’t be a Christian unless you agree with the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.

This has never made sense to me, and gets to the root of the disagreement about what constitutes “the church.” How can you be a Christian, and so, be in good standing with God, but somehow not be in good standing with the church?

1 Corinthians 12:12-13 The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ.** For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body**—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

The Body of Christ is the church. You’re added to it when you’re baptized.

1 Corinthians 12:18 But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be.

God arranges the parts of the Body as he wants them; the body of Christ is not arranged by who submits to the Pope.

1 Corinthians 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

EACH Christian, is a member of the body of Christ. To say someone is “imperfectly” or “not in good standing” a part of the body is nonsense, and totally unbiblical.

 

[ralphinal]

This has never made sense to me, and gets to the root of the disagreement about what constitutes “the church.” How can you be a Christian, and so, be in good standing with God, but somehow not be in good standing with the church?

1 Corinthians 12:12-13 The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ.** For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body**—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

The Body of Christ is the church. You’re added to it when you’re baptized.

1 Corinthians 12:18 But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be.

God arranges the parts of the Body as he wants them; the body of Christ is not arranged by who submits to the Pope.

1 Corinthians 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

EACH Christian, is a member of the body of Christ. To say someone is “imperfectly” or “not in good standing” a part of the body is nonsense, and totally unbiblical.

Then why do we see corrections given to the Churches in Revelation? Or by Paul in the Epistles? It seems like close enough was not close enough

 

[Highwayhound]

Sometimes life is not about us. In this instance it is about 150,000 other people who are converting to Catholicism. As we do not know their background or reasons for their conversion I look at it as a joyous moment, not one to use to debate minutia. There could be many non-believers who have found out about Jesus and have chosen to embrace Him as their Lord and Savior. This is indeed a cause to celebrate.

Today is Good Friday and this means they are only 2 days away from their first Easter as Christians. Easter is a very special day.

God bless

 

[ckempston]

Then why do we see corrections given to the Churches in Revelation? Or by Paul in the Epistles? It seems like close enough was not close enough

I’m not sure what this has to do with who is a part of the church, but the Apostles certainly had the authority to correct the churches since Jesus revealed “all truth” to them in the first century. He didn’t give them a deposit of beliefs to collect interest and grow and change over time, he gave them all Truth.

 

[ckempston]

Sometimes life is not about us. In this instance it is about 150,000 other people who are converting to Catholicism. As we do not know their background or reasons for their conversion I look at it as a joyous moment, not one to use to debate minutia. There could be many non-believers who have found out about Jesus and have chosen to embrace Him as their Lord and Savior. This is indeed a cause to celebrate.

Today is Good Friday and this means they are only 2 days away from their first Easter as Christians. Easter is a very special day.

God bless

I certainly agree with this, and was careful to point out in my original response that, though the numbers are open to interpretation, there is indeed rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents. If I have made it seem otherwise with my comments, that’s not my intention.

 

[Peter_J]

From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Tradition

The term “deposit of faith” refers to the entirety of Jesus Christ’s revelation, and is passed forward to successive generations in two different forms, Sacred Scripture (the Bible) and Sacred Tradition (apostolic succession).

No offense, ckempston, but when you start putting words in our (collective) mouth like

He didn’t give them a deposit of beliefs to collect interest and grow and change over time, he gave them all Truth.

you start to sound a little desperate.

 

[Peter_J]

Then why do we see corrections given to the Churches in Revelation? Or by Paul in the Epistles?

I’m not sure what this has to do with who is a part of the church, but the Apostles certainly had the authority to correct the churches since Jesus revealed “all truth” to them in the first century.

I thought ralphinal’s post was pretty clear. If being a Christian implies being in good standing with the Church, then why did Paul see a need to correct and admonish some Christians?

 

[ralphinal]

I’m not sure what this has to do with who is a part of the church, but the Apostles certainly had the authority to correct the churches since Jesus revealed “all truth” to them in the first century. He didn’t give them a deposit of beliefs to collect interest and grow and change over time, he gave them all Truth.

If it was not important what you believe as long as Jesus is God to you and you are baptised, why would they correct any erronious things at all?

 

[Peter_J]

BTW, if you haven’t read it already, I recommend the thread When dogma is defined. It goes into pretty good depth.

 

[Peter_J]

If it was not important what you believe as long as Jesus is God to you and you are baptised, why would they correct any erronious things at all?

I don’t believe ckempston said that it’s “not important what you believe as long as Jesus is God to you and you are baptised”. (Granted I could be mistaken. I find his argument here a little unclear.)

 

[ralphinal]

I don’t believe ckempston said that it’s “not important what you believe as long as Jesus is God to you and you are baptised”. (Granted I could be mistaken. I find his argument here a little unclear.)

I think that it is more nuanced than that as well. I am trying to establish exactly where the line is. At some point, someone either is a Christian (Catholic, Protestant) or they are not (Iglasia ne Cristo, JW).

 

[Peter_J]

But I think the big question here is: Is it possible for someone to be ‘not in good standing’ with the Church, and yet still be ‘a Christian’. I would say it is possible – e.g. some of the people St. Paul admonished weren’t in good standing with the Church but were not so far “out there” as to not be considered Christians.

 

[Franze]

Fantastic news, congratulations to all american catholics.

 

[ckempston]

From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Tradition

The term “deposit of faith” refers to the entirety of Jesus Christ’s revelation, and is passed forward to successive generations in two different forms, Sacred Scripture (the Bible) and Sacred Tradition (apostolic succession).

No offense, ckempston, but when you start putting words in our (collective) mouth like

you start to sound a little desperate.

So, are you saying nothing has ever been “added” to the deposit of faith? What do you call defining new doctrines? The fact of the matter is there was no deposit of faith as you describe it. As I’ve pointed out many times, if there was an apostolic succession/tradition, there would have been no vote on important matters. They would have simply opened a letter and said, “Yup, there it is, Immaculate Conception. Argument over.” But, they never said that. They debated, and they argued, and they voted, and sometimes barely got by with a majority vote.

This is not that complicated. IF there was a definite teaching handed down by the Apostles, there would not have been any voting. At some point shortly thereafter, anything that was taught by the Apostles would have been written down. Oral teachings do not remain oral teachings forever. If you have someone with any brains around, they say, “Hey, I got an idea, let’s write this down instead of having everybody memorize some (non-existent) oral teaching.”