1500 years and nobody thought of it?

[surgei]

surgei;3130156:

What is unkown in the early church is the idea of the Mother of God being without the sin of Adam (Immaculate Conception) and the inovation that requires this sinful attack on her personal holiness, the doctrine of imputed guilt created by Augustine.

There is voluminous evidence that the early Church believed that the BVM was sinless. You totally misunderstand the concept of “original sin” if that is what you are labelling as “the doctrine of imputed guilt”. I am quite unable to work out how you can possibly twist this into a “sinful attack upon her personal holiness”. It is utterly to the contrary.

I did not say that the Most Holy Theotokos commited sin. In this I stand in agreement with the fathers. What I do not accept is the doctrine that Mary was singled out to not share in what the rest of us have not by choices she made but by a “singular grace”. This turns God into a predestinator of the Calvinist kind.
It is a sinful attack on her personal holiness in that it seperates her from the rest of humanity. The Mother of God was like unto you and I in every way, but did not chose to sin.
Correct me then in my misunderstanding of Original sin.
The Catholic Encyclopedia sums up the topic thus.

It has the same claim to be a sin as has habitual sin, which is the state in which an adult is placed by a grave and personal fault, the “stain” which St. Thomas defines as “the privation of grace”…

If this is not an imputation of guilt, what then, is?

 

[anthony022071]

How do Protestants deal with the historical fact that for 1500 years, nobody ever dreamed of any of the ideas they consider “truth”?

For example, the Eucharist is not the body of Christ. Hmm, well, Jesus, or someone, sure fooled those stupid Orthodox and Catholics! And even most of the early “Reformers” such as Martin Luther!

Actually,there were Christians who advocated sola scriptura in the early centuries of the Church,except they were heretics.

“If you produce from the divine scriptures something that we all share, we shall have to listen. But those words which are not found in the scriptures are under no circumstance accepted by us, especially since the Lord warns us, saying, In vain they worship me, teaching human commandments and precepts’ (Mt 5:19)” Maximinus (Arch-Arian Heretic), Debate with Maximinus, 1 (c. A.D. 428).

 

[jblake]

Wow. Can you show a source.

Tertullian was the first to use the term to refer to Baptism and the Eucharist. I don’t remember if he used it to refer to anything else.

Both The Council of Florenceand The Fourth Lateran Council defined the number and form.

The Council of Trent defined the justification for the specific Sacraments. (Visible Forms are Sacraments when they provide an Invisible Grace.)

• St Ambrose: Foot Washing and Baptism;
• Augustine: The Apostle’s Creed, The Our Father, Baptism, Eucharist;
• Dionysius the Pseudo-Areopagite: Baptism, Eucharist, Anointing, Ordination, Monastic Consecration, Funerals;

I don’t have any of the really long lists.
Luther argued that there were three, then two Sacraments: Confession, Communion, Baptism.

xan

jonathon