1611 KJV in Walmart

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if I ever get that goat skin covered perfectly laid out, multi ribbon DR version I long for, I’ll stop! Maybe I should look into a rebind one of these days.
Well, multiple ribbons, at least, are easy to add to a Bible, anyone can do that easily…

Rebinding a Bible will cost considerably more.

However, I recently decided to put my old Baronius Douay-Rheims-Challoner in storage and I bought the Premium Ultrasoft Large Print St. Benedict edition. Of course, it is not perfect, but it is by far the most practical DR I’ve seen for regular use. Well worth $42 (you’ll pay three or four times that for a rebind).
 
Well, multiple ribbons, at least, are easy to add to a Bible, anyone can do that easily…

Rebinding a Bible will cost considerably more.

However, I recently decided to put my old Baronius Douay-Rheims-Challoner in storage and I bought the Premium Ultrasoft Large Print St. Benedict edition. Of course, it is not perfect, but it is by far the most practical DR I’ve seen for regular use. Well worth $42 (you’ll pay three or four times that for a rebind).
I own a DR from St. Benedict, in the ultra soft, and the RSV-CE, also from St. Benedict, in genuine leather. While both are nice, they pale in comparison to a Cambridge. I realize the Word of God is the Word of God, and what is in between the covers is what counts, but comparing a St. Benedict, Ignatius or other brand Bible to a Cambridge or RL Allan, is kind of like the VW Mercedes comparison. How I wish Cambridge would make a Catholic edition of something, LOL. Hence, my thoughts behind getting the KJV with Apocrypha from them when they release it. 🙂

I’ve looked into rebinding, and what I’m looking for would run around $100, which is fine, but the paper, intro etc. is still going to be the same as it was originally. Again, just not up to par with anything from the Cambridge type group.
 
I own a DR from St. Benedict, in the ultra soft, and the RSV-CE, also from St. Benedict, in genuine leather. While both are nice, they pale in comparison to a Cambridge. I realize the Word of God is the Word of God, and what is in between the covers is what counts, but comparing a St. Benedict, Ignatius or other brand Bible to a Cambridge or RL Allan, is kind of like the VW Mercedes comparison. How I wish Cambridge would make a Catholic edition of something, LOL. Hence, my thoughts behind getting the KJV with Apocrypha from them when they release it. 🙂

I’ve looked into rebinding, and what I’m looking for would run around $100, which is fine, but the paper, intro etc. is still going to be the same as it was originally. Again, just not up to par with anything from the Cambridge type group.
I own the Cameo Cambridge KJV you mention – I kept it even though it was recalled (it was missing the last page of 2 Maccabees.) It was nice, but not all Cambridge Bibles I own are nice – some are downright crummy! It all depends on who the actual printer and binder are. And sometimes Cambridge’s actions verge on the deceitful – e.g., their gluing in corrections to the RSV Brevier Bibles.

(Cambridge does sell a number of French Morocco NRSVs with Apocrypha, although I gather that is not a translation you prefer.)

R. L. Allan uses text blocks from existing publishers (frequently Collins) and often their paper is nothing to write home about. Their bindings are great, though (except for their bindings semi-yapp and full-yapp bindings, which I do not care for at all.)
 
I bought one out of curiosity and to see what notes were included in the original text, what was reprinted of it. Cheap does not cover it. In fact, the cover will probably not last the year, even sitting on my bookshelf. It looks like it was made to show off, rather than to be used. It was put out by Zondervan and printed in the US.

The question of the Deuterocanonicals raised this thought for me. I have had some discussions with KJV-onlyists. (I start out by thanking them for using an essentially Lutheran document. Over 70% of the text of the New Testament was lifted directly from Tyndale, who was Lutheran.) When they sing the praises of the erudition of the translators, and their divine guidance, how do they then justify removing the Deuterocanonicals? Did all the groups that worked on them suddenly, book by book, lose their divine inspiration? I am anxious to see how a KJV-onlyist would answer that question.

We had my wife’s mother’s Bible rebound. The paper was not of high quality, but we did it to preserve the notes she had written when studying it. There were also interesting bits of paper and newspaper clippings that she had saved in the Bible. If you have a Bible that contains family information, especially births, deaths, and marriages, then it is a legal document and can be used to verify information for things such as retirement benefits and even passports.
 
In fact, the cover will probably not last the year, even sitting on my bookshelf.
Wow, that seems rather harsh. While it is not a well-made book, it is no worse than a mass-market paperback – and I have paperbacks printed in the 1950s on my bookshelf. It is clear that this volume would not stand up to repeated use, but it is fine for reference.

Regarding the Deuterocanonicals – of course, I would prefer that the edition had them. However, to be fair, in the KJV, they were listed as “Apocrypha” – not listed as “Deuterocanonicals.” In the same way, the Catholic Apocrypha (as included in the Sixto-Clementine Vulgate) of the Prayer of Manasses and the two additional books of Edras (depending on how you count, either 1 & 2 Edras or 3&4 Edras) are rarely included in Catholic Bibles today.
 
In the Council of Nicea, the deuterocanonicals were not included in the Canon because they were not considered inspired. It was only after the Council of Trent that the Roman Catholic Church included them as Scripture. You are right! The original KJV did include the deuterocanonicals, but don’t say that to a KJV-Only believer because they will flat out deny it. 🤷
 
In the Council of Nicea, the deuterocanonicals were not included in the Canon because they were not considered inspired. It was only after the Council of Trent that the Roman Catholic Church included them as Scripture. You are right! The original KJV did include the deuterocanonicals, but don’t say that to a KJV-Only believer because they will flat out deny it. 🤷
Have you actually spoken with anyone who claims to be a “KJV-Only” believer and asked them this question? (What does that exactly does that label mean anyway?) I have. So, in their absence, please allow me to field that question in their stead.

They might tell you that the act of translating a book does not mean it was inspired. The King James translation itself explained many reasons why they did not consider the Apocryphal books to be inspired. They were open about their reasons. Also, many modern bibles today include other material, such as stories, sermons, introductions, and maps along with the Old and New Testaments without any claim that these additions are themselves inspired.

Perhaps a logical question might be, is if the English King James translation teams did not consider the books to be inspired, even to the point of explaining why they considered them “non-inspired” in the same published bible, why would they translate them at all? I can give a couple reasons why they might do so. First, a Protestant might find himself in a conversation with a Catholic who did use the books. Second, if the books were obviously lacking / contradictory / containing endorsement of witchcraft / etc like the translators claimed, one could actually read the book for oneself, rather than simply taking “their word” for it.

I am not a Mormon, but I have a copy of the book of Mormon (somewhere)… and likewise I have a copy of the Jehovah Witness New World Translation. This doesn’t mean that I am a Jehovah’s Witness, or that I consider their bible to be an accurate translation. So, I am suggesting that the seventeenth century Protestants might have wanted a translation of the Apocrypha for similar reasons, even if they did not consider it inspired.

Concerning the Apocrapha itself, I had a friend who was recently reading Sirach, and he was amazed at some statements that he thought sounded very sexist. Here’s an example as from the King James (with Apocrypha) and the Douay-Rheims Bible.

Sir 42:14 KJV
(14) Better is the churlishness of a man than a courteous woman, a woman, I say, which bringeth shame and reproach.

Sir 42:14 DRB
(14) For better is the iniquity of a man, than a woman doing a good turn, and a woman bringing shame and reproach.

Since this is a Catholic forum, this is probably the proper place for this type of question. I am wondering how this verse (and others like it within the same book) could be considered inspired. The author is stating this as a truth, and I cannot see anything in the context that would explain this away as anything other than sheer sexism.

From the rest of scripture I understand that sin is sin, and iniquity is iniquity, and regardless of who commits it, it all leads to death, be they Jew or Greek, bond or free, male or female. Sirach is a little hard to reconcile.
 
I have many KJV Only brothers in Christ who deny they were included in the original KJV which is not true. It was included and later with the next edition decided to remove them and this is the KJV we have now following the 5 revisions.

It’s just like the Johanine Comma, there was no reason to include it, but for reasons unknown Erasmus decided to include it.

Personally, I don’t think they are inspired (not that my opinion matters. lol!) and they seem more like extra-biblical literature.

God bless you brother! 🙂
 
Sir 42:14 I am wondering how this verse (and others like it within the same book) could be considered inspired. The author is stating this as a truth, and I cannot see anything in the context that would explain this away as anything other than sheer sexism.
Sirach 42:14 is a reference to Eve, as the second half of the Sirach 42:13 makes clear.

If remarks that we now consider sexist were sufficient to mark Scripture as uninspired, then we would have to say that much of the Bible is uninspired (with Paul being one of the biggest offenders.) There are translations that point these verses out such as The Inclusive Bible. (The Inclusive Bible purports to be “Catholic,” is published by a Catholic publisher, and includes the Catholic canon.) I am not recommending this version to a general audience, but since sexist remarks seem to interfere with your appreciation of the Bible, perhaps this version can help you out. If it brings you closer to God, then all the better.

(To be clear, I recommend that general readers use a translation with imprimatur and I believe that a proper understanding of Scripture does not support sexism. But I also understand that sometimes we have stumbling blocks on the road to truth – the important thing is to continue on the path.)
 
In the Council of Nicea, the deuterocanonicals were not included in the Canon because they were not considered inspired. It was only after the Council of Trent that the Roman Catholic Church included them as Scripture. You are right! The original KJV did include the deuterocanonicals, but don’t say that to a KJV-Only believer because they will flat out deny it. 🤷
No that’s wrong. They were decided to be inspired in 382 at the Council of Rome actually.
catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0009sbs.asp
 
I am sorry if I sound harsh in my judgment. The cover looks as though it were meant to be seen as background in a picture, rather than to actually protect a book. I am not at all opposed to cheap books. I used to buy cheap books in Germany that just had a heavy tan cover, and carried public domain materials. I recall many Russian books that smelled heavily of the wood from which the paper was made. Penguin Books in England were cheap, but were well made. While I prefer a quality hardbound book for my research library, I will gladly buy a paperback for lighter interests.
 
In the Council of Nicea, the deuterocanonicals were not included in the Canon because they were not considered inspired. It was only after the Council of Trent that the Roman Catholic Church included them as Scripture. You are right! The original KJV did include the deuterocanonicals, but don’t say that to a KJV-Only believer because they will flat out deny it. 🤷
Nicea was called to address the Arian controversy.

If I remember correctly the Canon of Scripture was declared at the councils of 1st and 2nd Carthage and Hippo. It was declared closed at Rome (Carthage and Hippo being general councils could no speak infallibly). See, Why Catholic Bibles Are Bigger for the rest of the story. Probably messed it up as it is, regardless Nicea did not determine scripture it addressed Arianism
 
I have many KJV Only brothers in Christ who deny they were included in the original KJV which is not true. It was included and later with the next edition decided to remove them and this is the KJV we have now following the 5 revisions.

It’s just like the Johanine Comma, there was no reason to include it, but for reasons unknown Erasmus decided to include it.

Personally, I don’t think they are inspired (not that my opinion matters. lol!) and they seem more like extra-biblical literature.

God bless you brother! 🙂
Erasmus had very good reasons to include the verse. He was only using the Greek texts that he had direct access to, which meant that for his first couple revisions he was forced to use deficient texts that omitted it. When he had a Greek text that included the verse the situation was entirely different.

There are some factors to consider here:
  1. The verse is well supported by quotes from early fathers and writings, including Cyprian, Priscillian, and the Varimadum (dated 285, 385, and 380 A.D. respectively).
  2. Tertullian references the verse far earlier than this in 213 A.D. in his writing “Against Praxaes” and from the context of the writing, it seems that Tertullian’s theological opponents used the verse as well. Tertullian was arguing against their reading of the verse, so why would he do this if he could simply argue that the reading was not authentic?
  3. Jerome complained about a tendency in his scribes to omit the verse from their copies when they were constructing the Latin Vulgate. How could he do this if the verse did not exist when he spoke?
  4. The verse is well preserved in the early Latin copies, and although it has suffered omission in most surviving Greek manuscripts, it has survived in enough of them to provide a reading for consideration as a possible legitimate minority text. Sometimes minority texts are legitimate.
  5. There are reasonable explanations reasons why the verse could have suffered omission in the majority of Greek texts. Not only does the passage in 1 John seem repetitive which the scribal eye could inadvertently omit, but the Arians (and even others) would have been glad to have removed this verse on purpose.
  6. When comparing the only two possibilities from the surviving Greek texts, the majority reading (lacking verse 7) is grammatically incorrect. This was even specifically observed by Gregory of Nizianus, who commented on the unusual structure of three neuter nouns being supported by a male participle. On the other hand, the minority reading that includes verse 7 is grammatically correct, which lends great support to its authenticity.
No other alternative Greek text of 1 John has come forward that solves this grammatical problem. Grammar is the “check sum” of written language. The majority text that lacks verse seven fails this “check sum” test.
  1. The chapter does not even make much sense with verse 7 omitted. Why would John say that “the witness of God is greater” than the “witness of men” if he had not just previously described the “witness of God?” This is a classification called “internal evidence” and is synonymous as if you heard a “skip” in an audio recording. The recording without the “skip” is more likely to be legitimate.
This particular verse seems to be a “hot button topic” among many. Unfortunately, few actually research this, and the most guilty are those claiming to be the “scholars” who typically misrepresent the issue and ignore whole classes of evidence. Another faction are those who are vehemently oppose the deity of Christ (the reading is favorable to both Trinity and Oneness models of God, but stands in contradiction to other perspectives.)

Bible commentator Adam Clarke gives false information on this section, saying that it is scarcely supported by the Latin. Bible commentator Matthew Henry has a section on the internal evidence supporting the verse, and John Gill speaks of the external evidence (early Fathers, grammar, and so forth.) The verse was included in the Douay-Rheims Bible and the English tradition of William Tyndale through the King James Version.

1Jn 5:7-9 Douay-Rheims Bible
(7) And there are Three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.
(8) And there are three that give testimony on earth: the spirit and the water and the blood. And these three are one.
(9) If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater. For this is the testimony of God, which is greater, because he hath testified of his Son.

1Jn 5:7-9 King James Version
(7) For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
(8) And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
(9) If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

Regardless of whether your “King James Only” brethren are able to aptly defend the verse or not, there are great many reasons to rule in favor of its authenticity, and very few (majority text of the Greek, ignoring the Latin) to reason in favor of its omission, and there is no evidence for the conspiracy theory that has been constructed to justify removing this verse.
  1. It is cited by the early Fathers and writings,
  2. it is well documented in the Latin,
  3. it has survived in some Greek texts,
  4. the grammar of the Greek demands it,
  5. and the immediate context insists upon it.
For the record, I wanted to make a mention that the question of the legitimate of the Apocryphal Books and 1 John 5:7 are in different arenas. The inclusion or exclusion of one does not affect the other.
 
Originally Posted by spo562
In the Council of Nicea, the deuterocanonicals were not included in the Canon because they were not considered inspired. It was only after the Council of Trent that the Roman Catholic Church included them as Scripture. You are right! The original KJV did include the deuterocanonicals, but don’t say that to a KJV-Only believer because they will flat out deny it
This is false! If they were considered scripture at Trent,the why did Luther have an issue the 7 books roughly 20 years earlier? Trent merely re-confirmed what was always considered scripture.
 
Thank you for the presentation of facts. I am aware some of the early Church Fathers did quote 1 John 5:7 and it does make sense that Erasmus probably didn’t have access to all the known manuscripts. I stand corrected! 🙂 God bless you. 🙂
 
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