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peeteyg
Guest
Does anyone know how the JW’s decided that they know the precise time jesus has his reign or kingdom in heaven. My JW friend said it comes from Daniel. Any help to give me ammo for him.
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Yerusalyim
Guest
Actually, Russell there founder used the length of the tunnels within the Great Pyramid to come up with this date…and called the Pyramids scriptures in stone. 1914 wasn’t the first date Russell had picked…but it’s the one they finally stuck with.
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Javl
Guest
1898 was the first date, and Russell came up with many more. “Judge” Rutherford, Russell’s successor, came up with 1922 when nothing happened in 1914. They have been coming up with dates for the “end times” ever since and each one has been a bust.
The best one was in the 1970’s when just about every JW sold everything they had and awaited the “great tribulation”. Again it was a false prophesy. But the JW is so brainwashed by the Watchtower and Bible Tract Society ( JWs ) that the JWs will believe anything the WBTS says. The JWs are trained to accept the WBTS as “God’s mouthpiece” and anything said or printed by other than the WBTS is of Satan and to be ignored. So, no matter what proof you may give them to the contrary to prove the WTBS wrong and false, they will just ignore.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
J
Jerok
Guest
I’m not sure exactly, but it has to do with 607 BC, the destruction of Jerusalem, and adding 2520 years (1260 days in revelation, converted to years, times 2)to it, getting 1914. However, 607 BC is often considered the wrong date for this destruction but the JW’s still believe they were right, and now Jesus is apparently back and invisible. This makes so much sense! 
Just google it if you want a lot of information straight from the JW’s themselves.
Just google it if you want a lot of information straight from the JW’s themselves.
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NotWorthy
Guest
So, let’s see.
Not only do the JW’s get the date wrong, but also the mispronunciation of our Lord and God - Jehovah - which is not how it translates!
Sounds like their O-2, or would it be 0-8 if you add up all the incorrect dates.
Not only do the JW’s get the date wrong, but also the mispronunciation of our Lord and God - Jehovah - which is not how it translates!
Sounds like their O-2, or would it be 0-8 if you add up all the incorrect dates.
C
Catholic_Dude
Guest
catholicnick.blogspot.com/2009/06/basic-jw-apologetics.html
The JWs teach 1914 AD is when Jesus returned.
This doctrine is foundational to JW theology, and without this doctrine the Watchtower (the JW officials) would have no authority whatsoever. The JWs teach that in 1914 AD Jesus was installed as King of Heaven and this event marked the beginning of the end-times. As part of this end-times scenario, they teach God gave authority to a special group of people, “the Governing Body,” who head the JWs and are seen as God’s mouthpiece on earth. The biggest problem with this teaching is that the Bible nowhere teaches it, no such dates are given nor is such a teaching even foretold. The JWs reasoning is given in their book “What does the Bible Really Teach” in the Appendix, speaking on the vision in Daniel 4:10-16 the JWs reason:
… the vision served notice that this ‘trampling of Jerusalem’ would be temporary—a period of “seven times.” How long a period is that?
Revelation 12:6, 14 indicates that three and a half times equal “a thousand two hundred and sixty days.” “Seven times” would therefore last twice as long, or 2,520 days. But the Gentile nations did not stop ‘trampling’ on God’s rulership a mere 2,520 days after Jerusalem’s fall. Evidently, then, this prophecy covers a much longer period of time. On the basis of Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6, which speak of “a day for a year,” the “seven times” would cover 2,520 years.
The 2,520 years began in October 607 B.C.E., when Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians and the Davidic king was taken off his throne. The period ended in October 1914. At that time, “the appointed times of the nations” ended, and Jesus Christ was installed as God’s heavenly King.
First, notice how the JWs have to use a lot of ‘gymnastics’ to come up with 2,520 years. The Bible is not a ‘code book’ with secret data hidden in it which then must be manipulated to reveal a secret message. This makes the JW “calculations” already dubious, even childish. They are essentially forced to draw from various texts, written for very different times and purposes, to eventually come up with the magical number 2,520. Notice next what the JWs conclude when the value of 2,520 days doesn’t seem to work, they say “evidently” this must mean the period is a lot longer, which means they are building key teachings off of speculation. Lastly, their calculations require them to count from the year 607 BC, but the Bible nowhere gives us this date. They derive this date from secular history texts, yet this fails because they have had to leave Scripture and rely on uninspired worldly documents. This is further compounded in light of the gymnastics and digging through Scripture just to ‘derive’ 2,520 years, now they must leave Scripture entirely to come up with 607 BC.
The JW argument also requires a total apostasy for it to work, but that is plainly against the promises of Christ to always be with the Church, which is in fact His Body.
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JeanneH
Guest
Their reasoning is so convoluted that I don’t think most of the JW’s fully understand this themselves.
You know if they would ever believe the truth, their entire belief system would crumble so it behoves the WT to keep this lie going.
No matter what ammo you have for him, he will never listen because when he finally learns the truth he will then know what a complete fool the WT has made of him.
All you can do is pray that God opens his eyes.
S
Shin
Guest
May God help the poor fellows… I still think about the fellows who used to visit me, and pray for them.
It’s a tight trap, because it takes over the entire life, and requires you to sacrifice so much to get out, the longer you are in.
Prayers and more prayers.
It’s a tight trap, because it takes over the entire life, and requires you to sacrifice so much to get out, the longer you are in.
Prayers and more prayers.
Z
zach_dunn
Guest
One thing I think is curious is that they use Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6 for the days, but they over look another verse fairly similar to this:
2 Peter 3:8
But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
According to this, Christ would not be “installed as God’s heavenly King” until the year 2,519,394 AD . . . but that would mean Armageddon isn’t upon us at this very moment.
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Catholic_Dude
Guest
One thing I think is curious is that they use Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6 for the days, but they over look another verse fairly similar to this:
2 Peter 3:8
But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
According to this, Christ would not be “installed as God’s heavenly King” until the year 2,519,394 AD . . . but that would mean Armageddon isn’t upon us at this very moment.
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Regardless
Guest
The book of Daniel has some very important events prophesied. It is thanks to the chronology of the “weeks of years” (Daniel 9:25) that those in the first century were expecting the Messiah when Jesus showed up. (Luke 3:15) The prophecy was correct to the very year!
So as keen students of the Bible, the early JW’s were interested in Daniel 4 about the “7 times” that the nations would trample God’s kingdom. Jesus mentioned them in Luke 21:24, and told us to pay attention to Daniel in Matt 24:15.
So the early JW’s discerned that 7 times (2520 years) after Jehovah’s rulership (symbolised by Jerusalem) was destroyed, the Kingdom Jesus taught would be set up.
They didn’t know what would happen, and made some unfortunate speculations in the years before and after, but they discerned something was going to happen.
Rev. 12:7-12 happened. The world went crazy with Satan put on notice.
Suddenly Matt 24:3-14 made alot more sence, and have more so ever since.
But most “Christians” were too busy murdering their fellow “Christians” in WW1 to notice.
By coincidence, the tiny crew who knew something was up, was then used to preach God’s Kingdom throughout the world as Jesus foretold. (Matt 24:14) Despite fierce attempts to stop them.
Does the Catholic church teach you much about Daniel or when the last days began?
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Ruthie_again
Guest
"Does the Catholic church teach you much about Daniel or when the last days began? "
The Catholic Church teaches us to read and study the Bible as a whole. We do not select one verse in Daniel, then one verse in Isaiah, one verse in Mark, one verse in Revelation, etc. etc., then put them together as a paragraph.
We do not single out one verse that seems to say what we want to be true, then ignore all verses that say otherwise. We read the whole context. We do not argue, for instance, that Mk 16:16 says we don’t need baptism to be saved, because of the second half of the sentence.
We don’t contradict known Roman history, and 28 NT verses, by saying Jesus died on a “torture stake.”
We don’t contradict 46 NT verses calling Jesus the “Son of God,” and decide He is not God’s Son, but an archangel, because of a single verse (1 Thes 4:16).
As for the last days, it’s not our business, or yours, either. What makes you think you can figure out when the end times will be? Are you going to outwit God? We are told twice that only the Father knows the time. (Mt 24:36, Mk 13:32)
You folks are not the only church that cherry-picks verses, and I don’t mean to imply that all the mistakes above are yours. I pulled them from memory of many discussions with many different people.
God bless you,
Ruthie
The Catholic Church teaches us to read and study the Bible as a whole. We do not select one verse in Daniel, then one verse in Isaiah, one verse in Mark, one verse in Revelation, etc. etc., then put them together as a paragraph.
We do not single out one verse that seems to say what we want to be true, then ignore all verses that say otherwise. We read the whole context. We do not argue, for instance, that Mk 16:16 says we don’t need baptism to be saved, because of the second half of the sentence.
We don’t contradict known Roman history, and 28 NT verses, by saying Jesus died on a “torture stake.”
We don’t contradict 46 NT verses calling Jesus the “Son of God,” and decide He is not God’s Son, but an archangel, because of a single verse (1 Thes 4:16).
As for the last days, it’s not our business, or yours, either. What makes you think you can figure out when the end times will be? Are you going to outwit God? We are told twice that only the Father knows the time. (Mt 24:36, Mk 13:32)
You folks are not the only church that cherry-picks verses, and I don’t mean to imply that all the mistakes above are yours. I pulled them from memory of many discussions with many different people.
God bless you,
Ruthie
J
Javl
Guest
Didn’t Jesus say that the end is known only to the Father? Not even the Son knows the end time. The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, along with the Seventh Day Adventists and other Millenial Dawn organizations, should know better than to play with numerology trying to discern and predict the future. The WBTS attempts at predicting the end and resulting Armageddon has been proven false each time, begining with Charles Taze Russell in 1898 down to the present time.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
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Catholic_Dude
Guest
None of those passages state what you just said.
But the Bible isn’t a code book. You’re grabbing numbers and making them mean what you want.
For something so critical to Christian history, we should not expect it to be cloaked in such codes and codes…all ‘joined’ together from* assumptions*. Further, your message states that God abandoned His Church until 1914, leaving no Church for 1900 years! Where is the Gospel here?
This doesn’t excuse the fact you build from 607AD - a date the Bible doesn’t give! Doesn’t that bother you that a critical date is not given in the very source of Truth you look to?
You’ve got to be kidding. The armageddon accounts in the Gospels state Christ’s return is the end of the world, not the beginning of a new phase. His Return will be unmistakable to the world, including unbelievers. You quote Mat 24:13? Look what Mat 24:13 says:
23At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time. 26"So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the desert,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
This is saying if anyone says “Christ returned on X date” Jesus says they are not telling the truth. The reason is because when He returns it will be unmistakable to everyone, you wont need to be told! Verse 26 is especially powerful because it says if anyone says Christ returned in some lhidden way, they are wrong - this is especially pertinent because JW’s say Christ returned invisibly.
Yes, but it is not in the way you’re thinking. One is free to speculate, but not offer specific dates. Further, Christ’s return happens once, and it marks the very end, not the start a new church on earth beginning in 1914.
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Regardless
Guest
Superb. Good use of scripture!
Yes, Armageddon is the end of the world (“end of the age” NIV, “conclusion of system of things” NWT). But there would be a clearly discernable time leading up to Armageddon in which obvious events would occur. Jesus described it Matt 24:32,33 as being like signs that summer is near, before it arrives.
In Matt 24:3 Jesus apostles asked firstly for the sign of his coming (the greek is parousia which is better translated “presence”. Erchomenon is “coming” as used in verse 42) and the end of the world/age/system.
Two things.
He then describes marks of that sign: major wars, food shortages, earthquakes, an increase in lawlessness (in Lukes account) the worldwide preaching of the Kingdom good news, false Christs and persecution of his true followers.
These are events that happen, not in one day at Armageddon. Surely several years at least. Decades perhaps. All leading up to “the end” (verse 14.)
Again in vs 21,22 we see this lead up to the end. And vs 32-36. (36 saying no one knows the day or hour. Not even Jesus)
Compare the account in Rev 12:7-12. Michael casts satan out of heaven, not at Armageddon, but “a short period of time” before. “Woe for the earth.” Notice, after the Kingdom is set up! (Rev 12:10.)
Daniel (who Jesus recommends we pay attention to in Matt 24:15) describes the same event in Daniel 12:1. Michael standing up for his people. A time of great distress.
This is all the same time! A time of great distress and trouble, starting with satan being cast out of heaven (woe for earth) and concluding with “the end” (Armageddon as “Catholic Dude “ discerned)
In Matthew 24:42, and 25:13 and often elsewhere, Jesus urges his followers to “keep on the watch” For what? His presence. (parousia) since they wouldn’t knowthe day he was coming (erchomenon) We know from the amazing events since 1914 we are in his presence. He rules in heaven, but has not come to take control of earth.
The early JW’s thought 1914 was pointed to in scripture, they didn’t properly understand what it meant at the time.
But events since fit the Bible accounts like no other in history. Don’t use the fact JW’s say so as a reason to ignore that. “Keep on the watch!”
Sorry about the late reply, haven’t been near computer.
Regardless
J
Javl
Guest
Yes, “keep on the watch”. But the WBTS has also had the habit of predicting the end times in violation of Jesus’ warning not to. It has been playing around with numerology from C.T. Russells time in 1898, to modern times, in attempts at predicting the end and each prediction has proved to be false. Don’t say that the early JWs didn’t understand and that the present day ones do, or that “the light is getting brighter”. These are very weak and embarassing excuses. Is this the mark of an organization that claims to be “God’s mouthpiece”?
When the end time is to occur is not for us to know. It may occur while you are reading this post, or it may occur thousnds of years from now. Just do as Jesus says and keep watch.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
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NotWorthy
Guest
… but don’t play the part of Chicken Little and claim repeatedly that the sky is falling. It only causes you to lose credibility among the faithful and some will walk away in disgust and confusion.
J
Javl
Guest
Exactly. This is what the WBTS has been doing, and yet people are still duped by it and join it believing everything it says.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
R
Ruthie_again
Guest
“…the time that the continual burnt offering is taken away, and the abomination that makes desolate is set up…” (Dan 12:11 RSV)
The continual burnt offering was taken away when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem around AD 70. Ask any Jew. That is what Jesus spoke of when He told His people to flee to the mountains, etc. The “desolating sacrilege” (Mt 24:15) was the Romans worshiping in the Temple. Jesus was telling his people to get the heck out of Jerusalem before the Romans sacked it.
“So, if they say to you,
I may be wrong, but don’t you believe that Jesus has been in the “inner rooms” of the WTS? No, I’m not going to believe it. We will ALL know when He comes again.
You said, “…marks of that sign: major wars, food shortages, earthquakes, an increase in lawlessness (in Lukes account) the worldwide preaching of the Kingdom good news, false Christs and persecution of his true followers.”
These things have been with us since the birth of Christ. What changed around WWI was the media. The telegraph, then radio, then TV; we now get to hear about every earthquake, famine, war, and crime. There has been no significant increase in any of them.
You said, “Notice, [the dragon is thrown down] after the Kingdom is set up! (Rev 12:10.)”
Read the Gospels again. Jesus refers constantly to the Kingdom of Heaven – in the present. “The Kingdom of Heaven is like…” When He came to live with us, His salvation, power, authority and His Kingdom were established. It is not in the future; it is here now, and we can and should search for it…
God bless you,
Ruthie
The continual burnt offering was taken away when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem around AD 70. Ask any Jew. That is what Jesus spoke of when He told His people to flee to the mountains, etc. The “desolating sacrilege” (Mt 24:15) was the Romans worshiping in the Temple. Jesus was telling his people to get the heck out of Jerusalem before the Romans sacked it.
“So, if they say to you,
Lo, he is in the wilderness,' do not go out; if they say, Lo, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.” (Matt 24:26 RSV)I may be wrong, but don’t you believe that Jesus has been in the “inner rooms” of the WTS? No, I’m not going to believe it. We will ALL know when He comes again.
You said, “…marks of that sign: major wars, food shortages, earthquakes, an increase in lawlessness (in Lukes account) the worldwide preaching of the Kingdom good news, false Christs and persecution of his true followers.”
These things have been with us since the birth of Christ. What changed around WWI was the media. The telegraph, then radio, then TV; we now get to hear about every earthquake, famine, war, and crime. There has been no significant increase in any of them.
You said, “Notice, [the dragon is thrown down] after the Kingdom is set up! (Rev 12:10.)”
Read the Gospels again. Jesus refers constantly to the Kingdom of Heaven – in the present. “The Kingdom of Heaven is like…” When He came to live with us, His salvation, power, authority and His Kingdom were established. It is not in the future; it is here now, and we can and should search for it…
God bless you,
Ruthie
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