1962 Missal And Sacrosanctum Concillium

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I’d like to think that people can do both if not more.

There are 23 or 24 approved rites of the Church in many languages. That is a vast amount of knowledge and spirituality to be gained. As well as silence and social gatherings.

Those who are just happy to do the minimum, well… 😦
I certainly agree with this. I enjoy seeing first-hand different people and celebrating Mass with them. I enjoy challenging my mind, and I think that often, the Holy Spirit can get through to our stubborn hearts when we dare to take a chance and expose those hearts to new priests, new music, new language, new art, etc. It’s kind of like a “jolt” to our soul–it wakes us up and helps us to see and appreciate the vastness of God’s Kingdom on this earth! 🙂

I do recognize, though, that some people are born with a less-adventurous soul and prefer to rest safe and snug in their own home parish with their own home-folks and traditions, and that’s just fine!

And I personally prefer to celebrate Mass regularly in my own heart-language. An adventure is fine and I need adventures! But for steady growth and acquisition of knowledge and wisdom, I really need my own language. That’s just me. I’m pretty dense when it comes to foreign languages. Even with the translation, I have a hard time.
 
I do recognize, though, that some people are born with a less-adventurous soul and prefer to rest safe and snug in their own home parish with their own home-folks and traditions, and that’s just fine!
It’s fine until the diocese decides to close or merge those parishes. In New York for example, the archdiocese closed 1/3 of its parishes recently in Manhattan. And if I read the report right, one of those was an Italian parish and the other an Irish parish. For those who preferred Mass and/or the sermon in those languages, now they have to look for a new parish, if one exists at all in that language.
 

Perhaps the most significance difference is that only the servers said the Latin responses during the Tridentine Mass. This too has changed in the EF Mass. The result in a more actively engaged congregation, but what is disturbed to a degree is the silent prayer and contemplation that were so much a part of the Tridentine Mass.
So are all (Church approved) EF Masses different from the 1962 liturgy in that respect? Is it the case that in some dioceses the EF Mass has altar boys but they may not have the same degree of experience with the TLM to make all the responses, that they would have had in 1962? Or is it a requirement of the Church that the congregation, not the altar boys, make the responses in the EF? I know in my diocese the EF is offered on a special basis by rotating diocesan priests, in 2 parishes that are primarily OF. So they are kind of an ad hoc community.

I wonder if the EF would likely be the same in a parish sponsored by the FSSP for instance, where there is a permanent celebrant with regular altar boys who do only the EF…I don’t know how much the Church allows latitude in celebrating the EF. For that matter, are Masses at the SSPX, or SSPV, identical to Masses said in 1962? I suspect that would be the ideal, but I wonder if they too have to make accomodation since a priest has to cover a few different chapels, some without a real permanent parish community as such.
 
It’s fine until the diocese decides to close or merge those parishes. In New York for example, the archdiocese closed 1/3 of its parishes recently in Manhattan. And if I read the report right, one of those was an Italian parish and the other an Irish parish. For those who preferred Mass and/or the sermon in those languages, now they have to look for a new parish, if one exists at all in that language.
So one of those communities will have to find a Mass in the Irish language? 🙂
To clarify, dioceses are sometimes forced to close or merge parishes due to extreme drop in priests, as well as significant shift in Catholic and non-Catholic population from suburban sprawl.
 
To clarify, dioceses are sometimes forced to close or merge parishes due to extreme drop in priests, as well as significant shift in Catholic and non-Catholic population from suburban sprawl.
It could also be the flee to more crowded churches for feeling of better security maybe? I remember a few years ago in Chicago amidst all the announced church closings that at least one traveled every week to Holy Name Cathedral because she felt that no way would the archdiocese close that church. Makes sense in a way because any perceived drop in attendance breeds still lower attendance, and ultimately in closing a given parish altogether. Lower donations, lower pro bono services, etc., while costs of running the church increase. Drop in priests might have something to do with it, but I’m not sure whether the drop in priests has caused the drop in attendance or whether the drop in attendance has inspired fewer priests. It appears to be more of a spiral. AFAIK, there is no shortage of priests at the cathedral. 🙂
 
So are all (Church approved) EF Masses different from the 1962 liturgy in that respect? Is it the case that in some dioceses the EF Mass has altar boys but they may not have the same degree of experience with the TLM to make all the responses, that they would have had in 1962? Or is it a requirement of the Church that the congregation, not the altar boys, make the responses in the EF? I know in my diocese the EF is offered on a special basis by rotating diocesan priests, in 2 parishes that are primarily OF. So they are kind of an ad hoc community.

I wonder if the EF would likely be the same in a parish sponsored by the FSSP for instance, where there is a permanent celebrant with regular altar boys who do only the EF…I don’t know how much the Church allows latitude in celebrating the EF. For that matter, are Masses at the SSPX, or SSPV, identical to Masses said in 1962? I suspect that would be the ideal, but I wonder if they too have to make accomodation since a priest has to cover a few different chapels, some without a real permanent parish community as such.
From the introduction of the OF Mass in 1969 until Pope Benedict XVI authorized the EF form of the Roman Rite in 2007 was a period of thirty-eight years. Many practices in the EF form, as has been noted, differ from the practices of the Tidentine Rite Mass. I cannot even recall all of them myself. Some changes were more significant that others–relatively minor things such as when it was proper to use incense. The Tridentine Mass had been the sole authorized Mass for nearly four centuries, and there were many practices that had long since been formalized. The High Mass differed significantly from the Low Mass.

I have only attended the Tridentine Mass in two Churches since it was reintroduced in 2007, and I don’t know what the Church formally approves for all EF Masses. I have wondered if the practice of the congregation saying aloud the Latin responses might simply be a carryover from the practice in the OF form of the Mass. Thirty-eight years is a long time. Some now attending the Tridentine Mass no doubt never observed this Mass when it was the only approved form. This would be true for even Catholic priests who even by 2007 had been years into their priesthoods.

I think what is almost certainly involved in this uncertainty is the long period of time during which the Tridentine Mass was not an authorized version of the Mass. There are many today who just never experienced it as it once was or who, like myself, did experience it but can’t remember every single detail all these years later. I was last a regular server in 1959, and that was fifty-five years ago. This was of course before even the 1962 Roman Rite Missal was introduced. Its tenure as the OF Mass was but seven years.

As servers, we were required to memorize all the Latin responses and be able to recite them in their proper sequence, and with correct pronunciation (or at least with a reasonable approximation to it) to become servers. In that era Mass was an everyday event for a server, and we got better once we became servers. I do not know the current practice.

For a long period of time prior to Vatican II, the Church resisted the intrusions of the modern world. Discipline was very strict. This bygone era no longer exists, and it is now literally a part of history. I think much was lost during the intervening years, and certain practices became somewhat obscure as a result.

It is noted that the Tridentine Mass was first introduced in 1570, and it was the only authorized version of the Mass (with a few minor changes over the centuries) until the introduction of the 1962 Missal—a period of three hundred and ninety-two years. It was that Mass, the original Tridentine Rite Mass, with which I was most familiar. It is no longer observed, and only the 1962 Missal is approved for the Tridentine Mass. So it is to some extent a comparison of apples to oranges anyway.
 
Note to my above comment:

Unless I am mistaken, there is also an OF Latin Mass (an OF Mass in the vernacular with the language being Latin). It is normally only said by priests without others present, though there are exceptions permitted.
 
Note to my above comment:

Unless I am mistaken, there is also an OF Latin Mass (an OF Mass in the vernacular with the language being Latin). It is normally only said by priests without others present, though there are exceptions permitted.
A full-Latin OF or a partial-Latin OF, as envisioned by Pope Paul, is always permitted.
 
Ed, the entire Western world evolved during the late 1960’s. It was not a conspiracy. There were many reasons for it. One of them was the post-war generation’s coming of age, the war in Vietnam another. There was the civil rights movement and the women’s movement. Were those bad things? Was the free speech movement a bad thing? Was the emergence of environmental concerns a bad thing? Was protesting the draft and the war in Vietnam a bad thing? I was by 1970 in college and protesting the war myself, after having served in the U.S. Army from 1967-70. Even the Army experienced significant change during this period, and, believe me, even some career soldiers, let alone draftees, were in rebellion. Many other institutions, including the Roman Catholic Church, were also experiencing dramatic change. It was a complex phenomenon and absolutely involved many millions of Christians.

But suffice it to say, not everyone was pleased and not every change was accepted.

Peace. 🙂
It was a carefully coordinated attack on the West and it cost millions of dollars. The moral aspects were the worst of it. Everything devolved. I was there.
  1. Coming of age is a meaningless concept. Outside Wayne State University was a bookstore filled from floor to ceiling with books about Eastern Mysticism. As long as it was not Christian, it was OK. They had to replace Christianity with any other religious or pseudo-religious thing they could think of.
  2. The War in Vietnam was a CIA sponsored campaign in association with the MIlitary-Industrial Complex. War materiel had to roll off the line: helicopters, ammunition of all kinds. Big money was made over a war with no clear objective. My Vietnam vet friends were shooting at what? VC in black pajamas? And who was supplying them? They did not have B-52 bomber fleets or carrier-based aircraft or the advanced technology that would develop over the years, including the helicopter turning into true gunships and Spooky. More bombs were dropped on Vietnam than all of Europe during World War II. We knew jungle warfare from fighting in the Pacific.
Some protested the War but after the war? Nothing. No Woodstock Nation. Just have sex with anybody, use a lot of illegal drugs and love porn. And try to convince anyone you met to do the same.
  1. Do you want to know the truth about the Civil Rights Movement? Get a copy of An Act of State by William F. Pepper, an English barrister and American lawyer.
  2. I was there for the attack on women by the viciously anti-family group, the National Organization of Women. A few comments. Betty Friedan compared the family to “a comfortable concentration camp.” Gloria Steinem, co-founder of Ms. Magazine (yes, that’s where that divisive word comes from), said, “A woman needs a man like a fish need a bicycle.” Abortion is good, artificial contraception is good and men are not to be trusted. The Patriarchy, had to be over thrown, including the Church. Women were told that stuff and sex on demand were all that mattered. That was and is still infecting other women.
amazon.com/Extreme-Makeover-Transformed-Conformed-Culture/dp/1586175610
  1. "The “lets make porn, strip clubs and topless bars, legal and common” was a very bad thing. Men began to view women not with respect but as body parts. Swingers, adultery, fornication, and dirty, perverted underground comix? “Off the pigs!” Kill the police! The planned addictions occurred.
continued…
 
Protesting the draft was not a new thing. War crimes committed by both sides were not a new thing. A Hippie friend of mine offered to write me a Conscientious Objector letter after I got my draft card. He sent in his and never went to Vietnam.

The Church was not experiencing dramatic change. At least not anything good. Sex - perverted, unmarried sex - had to be sold. Makers of The Pill had to move product. They couldn’t have the Church standing in their way. Pope Paul VI saw what was coming in 1967. His advisers urged him to relax Church teaching regarding ABC. He did not. Instead he reaffirmed it in Humanae Vitae, published in 1968. The reaction was almost immediate:

"Within 24 hours, in an event unprecedented in the history of the Church, more than 200 dissenting theologians signed a full-page ad in The New York Times in protest. Not only did they declare their disagreement with encyclical’s teaching; they went one step further, far beyond their authority as theologians, and actually encouraged dissent among the lay faithful.

"They asserted the following: “Therefore, as Roman Catholic theologians, conscious of our duty and our limitations, we conclude that spouses may responsibly decide according to their conscience that artificial contraception in some circumstances is permissible and indeed necessary to preserve and foster the values and sacredness of marriage.”

Source: Regnum Christi

Did you catch the “an event unprecedented in the history of the Church” part? That lit the fuse for the 5 year plan. Abortion legalized in 1973. How did that happen?

catholicnewsagency.com/resources/abortion/articles-and-addresses/an-ex-abortionist-speaks/

We were more trusting as a nation in the 1960s but the wolves inside and outside the Church worked very hard to try to tear it down, and abused our trust. But, as always, God left a faithful remnant. The lies were exposed. No-Fault Divorce out of thin air in the 1980s? I opened the newspaper to the classifieds and saw a lot of ads like this: “No kids? $75 and you’re out. Call 800-DIVORCE.” We, the people, did not ask for that. We, the people, did not legalize abortion.

All the bad that Pope Paul VI saw coming in 1968 if we did not heed his words? Here we are. Sex everywhere. In movies, TV shows, magazines… This is better? No way. Not by any definition of the term.

Too many men and women no longer know how to have relationships or prepare for marriage. Or even what marriage is. This is better? No.

Peace,
Ed
 
I have only attended the Tridentine Mass in two Churches since it was reintroduced in 2007, and I don’t know what the Church formally approves for all EF Masses. I have wondered if the practice of the congregation saying aloud the Latin responses might simply be a carryover from the practice in the OF form of the Mass. Thirty-eight years is a long time.
You are a bit confused in some of your observations, so please allow me to clarify.

The terms Tridentine Mass, EF Mass, Traditional Latin Mass all refer to the same thing. They are not different things. All of these terms refer to the pre-Vatican II Order of Mass. That Mass was indeed codified in 1570, but most of its ceremonies and texts go back much further, centuries further. After the Council of Trent the Church, in response to the Protestant Reformation, opted to standardize the liturgy. With the printing press having come into being, this was much easier to do than would previously have been the case. The Order of Mass, the way it was celebrated at Rome, became normative. All other variations, which were not necessarily huge, were suppressed, with a few exceptions. The last gospel, which previously had been recited by the priest on his way back to the sacristy, was at that time added to the Order of Mass and recited at the altar as the last prayer of the Mass. Otherwise, the texts are those used in Rome during the late Middle Ages. Between 1570 and 1965, there were occasionally very minor tweaks made, resulting in a new typical edition of the Roman Missal being issued. Most people, priests included, would be hard-pressed to identify the very minor changes made during these four centuries. The last typical edition of the 1570 missal of St. Pius V was that of 1962. The 1962 edition is the one used at all EF Masses today, be they diocesan clergy, FSSP, ICRSS, and yes, the SSPX, too.

Between 1965 and 1970 (Advent Sunday, 1969), there was a series of revisions made, and the result was an interim Order of Mass. This involved changes in language, ceremonies, rubrics and in the later changes, some textual modifications. In 1969 the new missal of Blessed Paul VI was promulgated, and it began to be used in the liturgical year 1970 (1971 in some places). This missal, including the Order of Mass, which we now call the OF, included some very substantial changes from its predecessor. The promulgation called for the missal to supersede all prior forms, “anything to the contrary not withstanding.” For all intents and purposes, this was a suppression of the EF, with some very sparing exceptions made for elderly, infirmed priests, and a special indult for priests in the UK. Only later in 2007 did Pope Benedict XVI proclaim that the old missal was, in fact, never truly suppressed. Maybe not de jure, but it was in practice.

In 1984 St. John Paul II allowed a limited use of the 1962 missal, if the local bishop authorized it for groups who were attached to the old rite. These could not be SSPX or similar groups who impugned the validity of the OF. This was a somewhat restrictive permission, the so-called indult, and it was not granted by a large number of bishops. In the U.S. I recall about a dozen bishops permitting such Masses at the time.

However, the situation turned considerably beginning in 1988, after the excommunication of Abp. Lefebvre and the bishops that he consecrated. The Pope established the FSSP from the remnant of SSPX priests, deacons and seminarians who did not wish to follow Abp. Lefebvre into schism. The FSSP was thus a society of pontifical right, and as such, the FSSP answered to the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei, which was formed after the Lefebvre to oversee the application of the 1984 indult. The Holy Father encouraged bishops to be “generous” in granting celebrations of the EF Mass according to the indult. While by no means a landslide, celebrations of the old Mass began to steadily increase, and several other traditional communities, such as the ICRSS, were established. Diocesan celebrations slowly but steadily increased as the 1990s wore on, and the FSSP expanded to North America. Many of us were involved with licit celebrations of the EF Mass during these years, rather than waiting until 2007. That was not a year of “reintroduction,” as the post stated. It was a year of expansion, as there were already 100+ American dioceses with at least one regularly-scheduled EF Mass, prior to Summorum Pontificum. There were even some full parishes established, including my own, formed in 1999 from an existing diocesan Latin Mass Community for the celebration of EF Masses and sacraments. So, to speak of 2007 as a year of return is not entirely accurate, as least not in many places.

Altar servers, pre-Vatican II and now, have always had to make the responses in their entirety, at EF Low Masses. At High Masses a choir was also involved with singing the responses, then and now. The Dialogue Mass movement, which began in Europe in the 1910s and moved to North America in the 1920s and 1930s, encouraged the people to make the responses at Low Masses, and even the shorter chanted responses at High Masses. In some dioceses and parishes–especially the American Midwest–this was widely promoted and practiced, while in others it was not. It varied by bishop and pastor. The Dialogue Mass movement, which had been tacitly approved by the Holy See since its earliest days, received more official support from St. John XXIII in 1958, resulting in an increased number of Dialogue Masses. However, there were still some places that lagged behind in its applications, especially those who had weak choirs. Five different levels of congregational participation were laid out by John XXIII in De musica sacra et sacra liturgia, though the higher levels were rarely, if ever, put into practice.
 
You are a bit confused in some of your observations, so please allow me to clarify.
The 1962 Missal, prepared under the direction of Pope John XXIII, included a revised Code of Rubrics, the name of St. Joseph was added to the Canon (or Eucharistic prayer) of the Mass, and the adjective “perfidis” was omitted in the Good Friday Prayer for the Jews. The changes in 1965 and 1967 were interim changes made in accordance with Sacrosanctum Concilliam. But no new Missal was introduced to include these changes.

Whether one considers the changes that were made in the 1962 Missal as major or minor is not the point in this discussion of the Tridentine Mass. The changes did in fact occur, and a new Missal was introduced that incorporated these changes. That is the point in this discussion, and it is not necessary to call anyone confused about this simple fact. The 1962 Missal does not contain the same Latin text as prior Missals. The 1962 Missal varies from prior Missals. It was why it was deemed necessary to issue the new 1962 Missal. In this respect, the EF Mass differs from the traditional Tridentine Mass as it was prior to 1962. This is the whole point, and it is that simple. It is not difficult to comprehend.

What was involved in the promulgation of the 1570 Missal by Pope Pius V has been thoroughly discussed in this thread. I have contributed to it. It is there to see.
 
I’ll try to explain what seems an issue concerning the Missal of 1570 promulgated by Pope Pius V. There had developed varying versions of the text of the Latin Rite Mass, and the Missal was introduced during the Council of Trent to provide a single Liturgical text for use throughout the Church. Throughout the centuries, there were the corrections to the text mentioned above, and perhaps some minor revisions. However, it was my understanding that these revisions were termed “typical editions”. There were no major changes. What is important is that whatever minor revisions might have been made were revisions of the text of the 1570 Missal. The text of the 1570 Missal, remained essentially the Latin text to the present day. Any corrections or minor revisions that occurred were to this text.

I believe most forum members involved in this discussion on this and other threads know this is the case, and that there is no significant or meaningful disagreement. It is perhaps a misunderstanding or differing interpretation of what we all know. During the discussions, it seemed presumptive that it was understood that whatever did occur following the introduction of the Roman Rite Missal were relative to its text and no other.

A new Missal was indeed introduced in 1962. And the text does not greatly differ either. We know it. But that there was a new new Roman Rite Missal introduced in 1962 was a relevant point in the context in which it was noted with respect to,the Tridentine Mass.
 
After lurking for a bit on this thread, I need to clear up some mistakes.
  1. The Missal did not remain the same from 1570 to 1962. Just for one example, a new Missal of 1920 was published. Also 1939. There were many others.
  2. The “perfidis” in the prayer for the Jews on Good Friday was changed in 1959, not 1962.
  3. The name of St. Joseph is not actually in the 1962 typical edition; it was added near the end of the year, which is why many “1962 Missals” don’t actually have it, except added in the margins by hand, or even by a sticker, etc.
  4. The changes after 1962, until the new Missal of Paul VI of 1970 (the actual Missal was not published until 1970; some parts were released earlier, notably the actual Ordo Missae), are considerable.
  5. The changes to Holy Week introduced in 1951-1956 are more “textually” different from what preceded than anything introduced in 1962.
  6. Virtually the only “textual” difference in 1962 is the addition of 2 new feasts to the sanctoral. And these, too, were actually introduced in 1960, to be effective in 1961.
 
Another feature of the 1962 missal is the addition of the four so-called Gallican prefaces in the rear appendix of the altar missal. These optional prefaces appeared in text-only, ferial, solemn and solemniore tones. They were prefaces for Advent, All Saints and Patrons, The Blessed Sacrament and the Dedication of a Church.
 
After lurking for a bit on this thread, I need to clear up some mistakes.
  1. The Missal did not remain the same from 1570 to 1962. Just for one example, a new Missal of 1920 was published. Also 1939. There were many others.
  2. The “perfidis” in the prayer for the Jews on Good Friday was changed in 1959, not 1962.
  3. The name of St. Joseph is not actually in the 1962 typical edition; it was added near the end of the year, which is why many “1962 Missals” don’t actually have it, except added in the margins by hand, or even by a sticker, etc.
  4. The changes after 1962, until the new Missal of Paul VI of 1970 (the actual Missal was not published until 1970; some parts were released earlier, notably the actual Ordo Missae), are considerable.
  5. The changes to Holy Week introduced in 1951-1956 are more “textually” different from what preceded than anything introduced in 1962.
  6. Virtually the only “textual” difference in 1962 is the addition of 2 new feasts to the sanctoral. And these, too, were actually introduced in 1960, to be effective in 1961.
We all know the Missal did not remain the same from 1570 to 1962. While the “perfidis” in the prayer for the Jews on Good Friday was changed in 1959, there is no 1959 Missal. But none of these things were the point of my original comment.

The significant point of my earlier comment was not technical, nor was it intended to be. It was a posting on an Internet forum and not a brief submitted to the Supreme Court. It too had its own context. Its point was that there was a significant period during which the Latin Mass (Tridentine Mass) was not largely observed by the people. During this period, the traditions that had been continuously practiced since 1570, however modified they had become, were not passed along directly from one to another in a continuing process that provided both a context and example. There were consequences. It happens when a tradition is no longer generally observed.

As I noted in my earlier comment, though I attended the Latin Rite Mass (term it as one will) for nearly twenty years, and was a server for a period of time while this Mass was observed in its continual tradition, I cannot myself recall every last detail. There were many. Beyond any doubt, there are those now interested in and observing the Latin Mass (Tridentine Rite) in the EF who did not themselves have the experience as it once was—the experience of the direct line of descent of the Mass. Whether this is good, bad or indifferent is not at issue. It is simply the fact that this occurred. Your obviously deep knowledge about this is significant and interesting. But I don’t believe it quite addresses the real meaning of my comment—there was a very long and evolving tradition that was broken for a significant period and there were consequences. Perhaps it matters not at all. But my comment was only in answer to specific questions that asked what I might know about the matter. I would let it go at that.

Peace.
 
Actually, perfidious was removed by St. John XXIII in 1960.
I actually remember when it occurred. I attended an all-male Catholic high school, and our religion teacher was a Catholic priest. The topic was discussed at length in class. It was not an insignificant change.
 
Actually, perfidious was removed by St. John XXIII in 1960.
I actually remember when it occurred. I attended an all-male Catholic high school, and our religion teacher was a Catholic priest. The topic was discussed at length in class. It was not an insignificant change.
Hard to say. The Father Lasance Missal (1945) has pro prefidis Judaeis, translated “for the unfaithful Jews” whereas the St. Joseph Missal (1959) has “for the Jews” (no Latin given).
 
It was changed in 1959. Of course the Breviary for Good Friday includes the words of Chrysostom, “And, O Jews, you killed Him…”

But most people weren’t/aren’t aware of that, so it doesn’t get nearly the same hype as “perfidis” did/does.
 
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