1968 Ordinal

  • Thread starter Thread starter Merrick
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
M

Merrick

Guest
Online I have come across the idea that the 1968 Ordinal is an invalid rite and has been compared to Anglican orders, mostly by sedevacantists.

Honestly, I don’t think any orthodox Catholic could take this seriously if they believe in the indefectibility of the Church. I have been researching this issue but need more information to gain a better grasp of it.

Other than the indefectibility of the Church itself, how do traditionalist Catholics respond to the claims that the 1968 Ordinal is an invalid rite?
 
I don’t see what should prevent a discussion of it. I am seriously considering Catholicism – in my mind it is more a matter of when and not if I will convert – and would like to know how Catholics would respond to these claims. I disagree that the 1968 Ordinal is invalid, but there is nothing wrong with asking others for insight to better inform myself. I need help from others in a sincere search for the truth.
 
Merrick said:
Online I have come across the idea that the 1968 Ordinal is an invalid rite and has been compared to Anglican orders, mostly by sedevacantists.

Honestly, I don’t think any orthodox Catholic could take this seriously if they believe in the indefectibility of the Church. I have been researching this issue but need more information to gain a better grasp of it.

Other than the indefectibility of the Church itself, how do traditionalist Catholics respond to the claims that the 1968 Ordinal is an invalid rite?
Click to expand...
Honestly, something like that is so bizarre I wouldn’t even know how to reply. When did Christ ever give them the keys to the kingdom of heaven so that they could overrule the entire Church? Very bizarre.
 
I’ve listened to some of those nuts’ claims as well and they say all the sacraments were changed in some form or another. If true I’m very curious of the reasoning to that, yet have no question of the validity of the new rites. Surely in 2000 years those weren’t the only changes made. Noteworthy though is that some orders in communion with Rome (the FSSP for example) administer the sacraments in the old rite for those with such concerns.
 
I can’t comment specifically on the controversy over the Rite of Ordination, since holy orders is the one sacrament that I’ve never seen administered in person.

However, I have noticed that some (but by no means all) radical traditionalist groups seem to misunderstand just what is necessary for proper form for a sacrament–in other words, the “bare minimum” words needed for the rite to be valid.

For example, some radical traditionalists will assert that the Novus Ordo Mass has an invalid consecration because it omits the phrase “mysterium fidei” from the consecration of the Precious Blood (this phrase is in the consecration prayers of the Tridentine Mass). Essentially, they argue that “mysterium fidei” is necessary for validity. However, we know that “mysterium fidei” is not necessary for validity, because the Eucharistic prayers of the Byzantine Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom does not include them. Since the Byzantine Divine Liturgy has been used by the Catholic Church for about a millenium and a half, and was composed by a doctor of the Church (Chrysostom), it would be an untenable position to assert that it, or any other Mass that omits “Mysterium Fidei”, is invalid.

The radical traditionalist group you’re referring to probably have similar doubts/misunderstandings about the Rite of Ordination, and what constitutes valid form.
 
Thank you. I found a good article about this refuting the claim of invalidity – it was actually written by the SSPX of all people – but I think I’m going to spend my time studying something else now. This claim really is too fringe for me to take very seriously, and I’d be better off avoiding extremists and schismatics.
 
The ordination prayers have barely even changed. The only thing that has changed significantly is the prayer for the consecration of a bishop. But, this prayer is based off the consecration prayer of St. Hippolytus. So in reality, today’s bishops are being consecrated to one of the first forms of ordination.
From St. Hippolytus:
Click to expand...
God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Father of mercies and God of all consolation,
you who live in the highest, but regard the lowest,a
you who know all things before they are,
you who gave the rules of the Church through the word of your grace,
who predestined from the beginning the race of the righteous through Abraham,
who instituted princes and priests,
and did not leave your sanctuary without a minister;
who from the beginning of the world has been pleased
to be glorified by those whom you have chosen,
pour out upon him the power which is from you, the princely Spirit,
which you gave to your beloved Son Jesus Christ,
which he gave to your holy apostles,
who founded the Church in every place as your sanctuary,
for the glory and endless praise of your name.
Grant, Father who knows the heart,
to your servant whom you chose for the episcopate, that he will feed your holy flock,
that he will wear your high priesthood without reproach,
serving night and day, incessantly making your face favorable,
and offering the gifts of your holy church;
in the spirit of high priesthood having the power to forgive sins according to your command;
to assign lots according to your command;
to loose any bond according to the authority which you gave to the apostles;
to please you in mildness and a pure heart, offering to you a sweet scent,
through your son Jesus Christ,
through whom to you be glory, power, and honor,
Father and Son,
with the Holy Spirit,
in the Holy Church,
now and throughout the ages of the ages.
Amen.
Click to expand...
Today’s essential form:
Click to expand...
So now pour out upon this chosen one that power which is from you, the governing Spirit whom you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, the Spirit given by Him to the holy apostles, who founded the Church in every place to be your temple for the unceasing glory and praise of your name.
Click to expand...
It is the same prayer. No new prayers have been made up. 👍
 
It is not just the ordination prayers themselves that have changed, the rest of the ceremony was radically altered as well. A Mass can be reduced to just consecration with the bare minimum of words for validity. Does that make it pleasing or good?

That is the main thrust from the SSPX at least. It is not that the Novus Ordo is invalid or that consecration does not happen, it is that it is less pleasing than the EF. Whether you agree or not does not really matter.

The sedes, however, deny the validity of ordination, consecration, the current Pope, etc. It is possible to have a heretic for a Pope. It has happened in the past. That does not mean that the Church structure and authority then crumbles. The Pope is still a man. It is possible for the Pope to do things that are sinful. He is human.

If you are not Catholic yet, then I would focus on becoming Catholic before you run off with elements in the far right or far left field.
 
The fabrication of completely novel rites of ordination is a cause of much consternation for me. The thing that bothers me most is that it seems so unnecessary. Supposedly, the reason for the creation of the NO mass was to increase “active participation” of the laity. Fine, but was it necessary to increase the participation of the laity in episcopal consecrations? Why even open up any opportunity for the validity of the sacraments to be disputed without grave cause?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top