1st Baptist Inches Toward Church Authority

[JohnPaul0]

In years past, First Baptist Church in downtown Dallas perhaps was the leading congregation of the Southern Baptist Convention. Gradually, suburban megaschurches took their toll in terms of declining membership. Pastor Robert Jeffress (yes, the one who heightened the controvery about Mitt Romney’s Mormanism) is striving mightily to return his church to prominence.

In a collection of billboards around town, Jeffress seeks to reassure potential members by implying that the 143-year longevity of First Baptist is a reason to choose it over other places of worship that might have trendy and questionable interpretations of Scripture.

Unwittingly he is seeing the value of Sacred Tradition, even the Magisterium, over sola Scriptura.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

In years past, First Baptist Church in downtown Dallas perhaps was the leading congregation of the Southern Baptist Convention. Gradually, suburban megaschurches took their toll in terms of declining membership. Pastor Robert Jeffress (yes, the one who heightened the controvery about Mitt Romney’s Mormanism) is striving mightily to return his church to prominence.

In a collection of billboards around town, Jeffress seeks to reassure potential members by implying that the 143-year longevity of First Baptist is a reason to choose it over other places of worship that might have trendy and questionable interpretations of Scripture.

Unwittingly he is seeing the value of Sacred Tradition, even the Magisterium, over sola Scriptura.

Boy, if in every Catholic Church would be a billboard saying that that is a 1985 years old Church !!!

 

[JohnPaul0]

Boy, if in every Catholic Church would be a billboard saying that that is a 1985 years old Church !!!

Yes, the Catholic timeline is a bit longer.

Doesn’t Pastor Jeffress have a strong parallel to Catholic thought? He is saying, "Look, for over a century you’ve been able to count on this church to teach what is (in his opinion) solid Christian doctrine. To his credit, he’s not calling attention to himself, but he is claiming that the leadership of First Baptist will guide the faithful correctly.

So, out goes the Bible alone. Men are needed to interpret it correctly.

 

[Hesychios]

Yes, the Catholic timeline is a bit longer.

Doesn’t Pastor Jeffress have a strong parallel to Catholic thought? He is saying, "Look, for over a century you’ve been able to count on this church to teach what is (in his opinion) solid Christian doctrine. To his credit, he’s not calling attention to himself, but he is claiming that the leadership of First Baptist will guide the faithful correctly.

So, out goes the Bible alone. Men are needed to interpret it correctly.

Excellent observations.

 

[JohnPaul0]

Thank you, Hesychios, for the kind words. In all modesty, I see these billboards all the time driving around town, so the understanding finally sunk in. So, I wanted to share it with everybody, especially separated brethren, who may begin to see *sola Scriptura *in ai different light.

 

[TimothyH]

The Evangelical Churches here in Atlanta are always doing that kind of thing, deriding other Churches for being too large or too old and then they shout that they are growing or how well established they are in the community with the very next breath.

There is a Chuch here in suburban Atlanta with a billboard which reads, “One Church, two locations!” I would love to see a billboard next it which reads, “Oh yea? You think that’s great? We have one Church and 17,953 locations!”

I actually heard Pastor Jonny Hunt of 1st Baptist Woodstock, a 6500 seat mega-Church here in the Atlanta suburbs, also Southern Baptist, make fun of people to say they only want to go to small Churches “Yea, want to go to a Church which lets a lot of people go to Hell” he said amidst laughter as he explained why he built a 63 million dollar auditorium.

And a Catholic can only shake their head at such nonsense. If bigger and older is better, then why are they not members of a 2000 year old Church with 1.3 billion members? I tell my evangelical Church that we have a chapel where people have been praying and adoring Jesus 24x7x365 for thirteen years and they are like, “Wow, that’s so cool!”

-Tim-

 

[JohnPaul0]

The Evangelical Churches here in Atlanta are always doing that kind of thing, deriding other Churches for being too large or too old and then they shout that they are growing or how well established they are in the community with the very next breath.

Yes, Evangelicals look to their pastors and trust in their pastors’ interpretation of Scripture. Think of all the billboards and church signs you’ve seen with the face or name of the pastor on them. So, already much of the Evangelical world has been operating under the unconcious banner of sola mia Scriptura, ie only pastor So-and-so’s interpretation is valid.

There is a Chuch here in suburban Atlanta with a billboard which reads, “One Church, two locations!”

That’s interesting because this church and 1st Baptist Dallas are taking a further step in that they are moving toward the authority of the church instead of just one named pasgtor.

… If bigger and older is better, then why are they not members of a 2000 year old Church with 1.3 billion members?

Because they haven’t thought through their sola mia Scriptura doctrine to its logical conclusion, which is that it takes men to interpret Scripture, yet men are fallible, so the only way to get infallible teaching is through divinely guarded interpretors.

I tell my evangelical Church that we have a chapel where people have been praying and adoring Jesus 24x7x365 for thirteen years and they are like, “Wow, that’s so cool!”

Cool indeed!

 

[Anna_Scott]

In years past, First Baptist Church in downtown Dallas perhaps was the leading congregation of the Southern Baptist Convention. Gradually, suburban megaschurches took their toll in terms of declining membership. Pastor Robert Jeffress (yes, the one who heightened the controvery about Mitt Romney’s Mormanism) is striving mightily to return his church to prominence.

In a collection of billboards around town, Jeffress seeks to reassure potential members by implying that the 143-year longevity of First Baptist is a reason to choose it over other places of worship that might have trendy and questionable interpretations of Scripture.

Unwittingly he is seeing the value of Sacred Tradition, even the Magisterium, over sola Scriptura.

JohnPaul0,

You are on to something here.

While still in the Southern Baptist Church, I attempted to correct some misconceptions about Catholicism posted on a Baptist forum–and I said many Baptist ministers require as much adherence to their teachings as the Pope requires from Catholics. Didn’t go over very well. I was banned as a “Catholic troll.”

Peace,
Anna

 

[ltwin]

Seems to me that this church is just a little worried over its loss of religious market share. Must be hard for the long established Southern Baptist Church to actually have to compete with other churches.

There is also a trend (not among Southern Baptists but primarily driven by black Baptist churches) of Baptists pastors being consecrated bishops (mitres, shepherd’s crook, and all). This article, originally in the Boston Globe, talks about it: clericalwhispers.blogspot.com/2010/07/more-baptist-pastors-adopt-bishop-title.html

 

[ProdigalAnglicn]

Yes, churches need an authority as surely as nations need a government. Yet in rejecting anarchy one need not endorse absolute monarchy.

 

[JohnPaul0]

JohnPaul0,

You are on to something here.

While still in the Southern Baptist Church, I attempted to correct some misconceptions about Catholicism posted on a Baptist forum–and I said many Baptist ministers require as much adherence to their teachings as the Pope requires from Catholics. Didn’t go over very well. I was banned as a “Catholic troll.”

Peace,
Anna

Thank you, Anna. The more I think about this, the more plainly I see how our separated brethren follow their church’s teaching/tradition/whatever you want to call it.

Isn’t it interesting, though, how others can see us better than we see ourselves? There you were, a Southern Baptist at the time, and they were calling you Catholic! Now, they didn’t do it nicely, but they could see something that perhaps you didn’t fully see at the time.

In the same way, we can look over and see how Protestants are following tradition, but they can’t see it.

-JohnPaul

 

[JohnPaul0]

There is also a trend (not among Southern Baptists but primarily driven by black Baptist churches) of Baptists pastors being consecrated bishops (mitres, shepherd’s crook, and all). This article, originally in the Boston Globe, talks about it: clericalwhispers.blogspot.com/2010/07/more-baptist-pastors-adopt-bishop-title.html

:tiphat: Yes, I never thought about it, but you are right on the money, ltwin! Quoting from the article:

"Borders and other new [Baptist] bishops have acquired some of the ceremonial garb — croziers (pastoral staffs), zucchettos (skullcaps) and chasubles (robes) — that their spiritual forefathers left behind when they broke from the Church of England in the 17th century.

Some, including Borders, have even embraced the doctrine of apostolic succession — the belief in an unbroken line from Jesus’ apostles to today’s bishops."

And check this out from the article:

“In an ornate ceremony in Memphis, where at one point he lay on the ground prostrate to demonstrate deep humility, Borders was consecrated bishop by the International Bishops Conference USA, a small and relatively new organization with members from a variety of Christian denominations.”

-JohnPaul

 

[TimothyH]

Seems to me that this church is just a little worried over its loss of religious market share. Must be hard for the long established Southern Baptist Church to actually have to compete with other churches.

The trend away from organized religion is visible out on the steets in my neck of the woods. Those in the big northern cities might not understand how surreal Christianity is down here, from Texas to North Carolina and everywhere in between.

Many Churches in the past few years have begun very visible programs against “Religion” as such, complete with billboards and banners which read, “Jesus… not religion!” An Evangelical Church just opened near me with that very theme as it’s whole go to market strategy, and one would assume, theological foundation - a personal relationship with Jesus without all the overhead of having to join a religion. Traditional jacket and tie Baptist Churches are facing competition from what I call the “Trailer Church”, a couple of guys who love God, have an awsome band, and have a trailer full of leased light and sound equipment which they set up in the middle school gymnasium for 10:00 Sunday worship “Experience”. These guys eventually get a building, a slick website and start plastering signs all over town. Baptist Churches can’t compete with these guys. The Coffee rivals Starbucks, the band is awsome, the sermon streams in real time, and the pastor’s wife is hot.



Those are just two random pics from websites of Churches which are within 15 minutes of my home. Worship With Wonders Church. His Hands Church. Freedom Church. With Purpose Church. Those are the names, complete with a professionally designed logo and a message about how much Jesus loves you. An old guy yelling at everyone about how they will burn in hell if they don’t repent can’t compete with this stuff. Even the Methodist Church next door to our parish feels that it needs to compete - they just put up a banner which reads, “Revive! A New Worship Experience!”

Most of my Evangelical freinds and acquaintances are as quick to distance themselves from mainstream Protestantism and Evangelical “Baptist” type Churches as they are from Catholicism. To them, it is all “Religion” and in their mind, Christ did not come to esablish Religion but to save sinners. It’s really giving the established old school Baptist Churches and other mainline denominational Churches a run for their money.

And meanwhile, Catholicism down here swings the pendulum back toward Latin masses and gregorian chant, incense and holy water. And the monastery can’t build a new guest house fast enough and the parishes schools where sixth graders are taught chastity by dominican sisters have three year waiting lists.

-Tim-

 

[JohnPaul0]

Traditional jacket and tie Baptist Churches are facing competition from what I call the “Trailer Church”, a couple of guys who love God, have an awsome band, and have a trailer full of leased light and sound equipment which they set up in the middle school gymnasium for 10:00 Sunday worship “Experience”. These guys eventually get a building, a slick website and start plastering signs all over town. Baptist Churches can’t compete with these guys.

Most of my Evangelical freinds and acquaintances are as quick to distance themselves from mainstream Protestantism and Evangelical “Baptist” type Churches as they are from Catholicism. To them, it is all “Religion” and in their mind, Christ did not come to esablish Religion but to save sinners. It’s really giving the established old school Baptist Churches and other mainline denominational Churches a run for their money.​

Tim, thanks for the reality check on the many faces of Christianity in America. These kind of “Trailer Churches,” as you call them are exactly what First Baptist is setting themselves up against. I guess the coat and tie message sells better in the city compared to the country.

And meanwhile, Catholicism down here swings the pendulum back toward Latin masses and gregorian chant, incense and holy water. And the monastery can’t build a new guest house fast enough and the parishes schools where sixth graders are taught chastity by dominican sisters have three year waiting lists.

I can’t wait for the day when Robert Jeffress dons his zucchetto and chasuble!

 

[Arizona_Mike]

An article on the subject from the Catholic Phoenix blog:

catholicphoenix.com/2011/02/11/dear-denys-the-postmodern-non-denom-pastor/

 

[Calgar]

Yes, Evangelicals look to their pastors and trust in their pastors’ interpretation of Scripture.

No we don’t. Perhaps you’re talking about a holiness church?

 

[JohnPaul0]

No we don’t [trust in our pastor’s interpretation of Scripture ]. Perhaps you’re talking about a holiness church?

That’s interesting to me, Calgar. If you don’t trust in what your pastor is teaching, why listen to him?

-JohnPaul

 

[ltwin]

Generally, evangelicals do trust the scriptural interpretation of their pastors, otherwise it would be hard to remain in that church with integrity. However, unlike the Catholic Church, there is no magesterial power that can definitively settle a matter. For example, pastors will often say something like, “Don’t take my word for it, read the Bible for yourself.” In other words, pastors encourage their congregants to test everything that they teach and preach against Scripture.

For example, my pastor may preach a form of prosperity gospel using Jeremiah 29:11, “For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.” However, I will not be content with his explanation of that passage. I will read the Bible for myself. The first place I will look is Jeremiah 29. When I read the entire chapter, I find that in its full context, verse 11 is not saying what my pastor said it would. Verse 10 states, “For thus says the LORD: When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will visit you, and I will fulfill to you my promise and bring you back to this place.” Clearly, then, verse 11 is not promising a wonderful life free from sorrow, suffering, and pain. Yes, in God I do have a future and a hope, but I might have to go through 70 years in Babylon as well. Therefore, this would be a situation where my pastor’s interpretation of Scripture cannot be trusted, and I will feel no obligation to believe what he believes on the matter.

Now, if all me and my pastor (or church as a whole) disagreed on was this issue (prosperity theology has only a small influence over his whole theological outlook), then I would still be able to remain in that church. However, if my pastor preaches on salvation stating clearly that Jesus Christ is the only means by which man is saved and backs this position up with Scripture, and I disagree stating that my interpretation of Scripture allows me to be a Christian and a Muslim Buddhist at the same time (finding the path to surrender to Allah’s will and enlightenment through the Buddha’s teaching very effective in perpetuating my walk on the spiritual path) then I would clearly be going against Scripture and any reasonable person can see that. There is no discretion in that case.

 

[Calgar]

That’s interesting to me, Calgar. If you don’t trust in what your pastor is teaching, why listen to him?

-JohnPaul

Glad your interested.

We don’t blindly trust as was implied (I believe) by the post. Ministers back up their sermons with the Bibilical book or books it is based on. That way we can check it out ourselves.

 

[JohnPaul0]

Generally, evangelicals do trust the scriptural interpretation of their pastors, otherwise it would be hard to remain in that church with integrity. However, unlike the Catholic Church, there is no magesterial power that can definitively settle a matter.

Yes, thanks ltwin. Your statement above and your “prosperity gospel” example coincide with what is my understanding of how an Evangelical would look at it. I was not suggesting that First Baptist is claiming a final magisterial authority. I was only suggesting that they have taken a step in that direction by holding up their church as a bulwark of orthodoxy.

The further reflection I was trying to communicate is that, knowingly or unknowingly, an Evangelical is instructed in the tradition of teaching of his pastor. He accepts the pastor’s instructions because he himself agrees with at least most of it, as you indicated.

So, in the absence of an objective, authoritative teaching (like the Catechism of the Catholic Church), I would ask: “How does the Evangelical form his set of beliefs by which he measures the teachings of his pastor?” It would seem that those beliefs are formed by the combination of his own reading ability plus instruction he already received in life, perhaps from other pastors. So, then we have the same song, different verse, where the average Protestant accepts the teachings of earlier pastors or of other Christians who mentored him.

Therefore, it’s still the case that the Evangelical accepts the teachings of someone, past or present, as true. It’s not our job as laypeople to know everything, so we rely on people who can devote more time to studying the truths of God. So, even if we constantly check the pastor’s teaching agains our own reference, and even if we go off and read more verses to put the teaching in context, the pastor makes the case and sets the direction of our spiritual life.

For example, pastors will often say something like, “Don’t take my word for it, read the Bible for yourself.” In other words, pastors encourage their congregants to test everything that they teach and preach against Scripture.

This statement brings up the related but separate topic that within Protestanism, no one can claim to have final authority on doctrine. I know that Pastor Jeffress would not claim it, either. With that said, in light of what I wrote above in this post, wouldn’t it be nice to have a reference like that? Just wonderin…

-JohnPaul