1st Century Church

[Rightlydivide]

Who is denying there was plural elders and bishops? But the elders (presbeteroi) were there to assist the bishops and the bishops were considered the leaders of the faithful.

Your dismissal is not a disproval.

The early church does not do that. time to crack open the Catholic encyclopedia again:

To some extent, in this early period, the words bishop and priest episkopos and presbyteros) are synonymous

 

[Arnobius]

How about providing a link so we can know what context you got this from?

 

[Rightlydivide]

Can you explain the context of this statement that has been stripped?

Well Judah told Onan to have sex with Tamar. He did not do it and spilled his seed.
For one, we do not go around letting people sleep with other people to have children. It says nothing of modern circumstances. If the Bible gave an example of a man sleeping with his wife and him ejaculating on her or the bed, that would be quite important.

 

[Rightlydivide]

How about providing a link so we can know what context you got this from?

Sure just look up bishop on the Catholic encyclopedia. It is a very long article and it supports my view.

The historical origin of the episcopate is much controverted: very diverse hypotheses have been proposed to explain the texts of the inspired writings and of the Apostolic Fathers relating to the primitive ecclesiastical hierarchy. They are most easily found in the work of von Dunin-Borkowski, on the latest researches concerning the origin of the episcopate (Die Neuren Forschungen uber die Anfange des Episkopats, Frieburg, 1900). The Apostolic and consequently the Divine origin of the monarchical episcopate has always been contested but especially so since Protestantism

Holtzmann thinks that the primitive organization of the churches was that of the Jewish synagogue; that a college of presbyters or bishops (synonymous words) governed the Judaeo Christian communities; that later this organization was adopted by the Gentile churches. In the second century one of these presbyter-bishops became the ruling bishop.

However, as late as the year 140, the organization of the various communities was still widely divergent.

newadvent.org/cathen/02581b.htm

 

[Arnobius]

Well Judah told Onan to have sex with Tamar. He did not do it and spilled his seed.
For one, we do not go around letting people sleep with other people to have children. It says nothing of modern circumstances. If the Bible gave an example of a man sleeping with his wife and him ejaculating on her or the bed, that would be quite important.

I take it you do not understand what this was: The Levirate Marriage

Deuteronomy 25: 5 “If brothers dwell together, and one of them dies and has no son, the wife of the dead shall not be married outside the family to a stranger; her husband’s brother shall go in to her, and take her as his wife, and perform the duty of a husband’s brother to her. 6 And the first son whom she bears shall succeed to the name of his brother who is dead, that his name may not be blotted out of Israel. 7 And if the man does not wish to take his brother’s wife, then his brother’s wife shall go up to the gate to the elders, and say, ‘My husband’s brother refuses to perpetuate his brother’s name in Israel; he will not perform the duty of a husband’s brother to me.’ 8 Then the elders of his city shall call him, and speak to him: and if he persists, saying, ‘I do not wish to take her,’ 9 then his brother’s wife shall go up to him in the presence of the elders, and pull his sandal off his foot, and spit in his face; and she shall answer and say, ‘So shall it be done to the man who does not build up his brother’s house.’ 10 And the name of his house shall be called in Israel, The house of him that had his sandal pulled off.

 

[Rightlydivide]

I take it you do not understand what this was: The Levirate Marriage

Deuteronomy 25: 5 “If brothers dwell together, and one of them dies and has no son, the wife of the dead shall not be married outside the family to a stranger; her husband’s brother shall go in to her, and take her as his wife, and perform the duty of a husband’s brother to her. 6 And the first son whom she bears shall succeed to the name of his brother who is dead, that his name may not be blotted out of Israel. 7 And if the man does not wish to take his brother’s wife, then his brother’s wife shall go up to the gate to the elders, and say, ‘My husband’s brother refuses to perpetuate his brother’s name in Israel; he will not perform the duty of a husband’s brother to me.’ 8 Then the elders of his city shall call him, and speak to him: and if he persists, saying, ‘I do not wish to take her,’ 9 then his brother’s wife shall go up to him in the presence of the elders, and pull his sandal off his foot, and spit in his face; and she shall answer and say, ‘So shall it be done to the man who does not build up his brother’s house.’ 10 And the name of his house shall be called in Israel, The house of him that had his sandal pulled off.

You take wrong. We are not under the Levitical law, gentiles NEVER have been. Is that what you believe?

 

[cascherman]

I was only showing that Disciplines can be fed from the top down. Maybe we’re on the same base. But if RD can accept your type of discipline, where it grows from within, I don’t believe he can accept my type of discipline, where it is downloaded from the Vatican.

Ah, I do think they are the same type of discipline, but I can see why he may accept mine and not yours. We accept the Church to tell us how we should fully practice our faith, he may not.

 

[NotWorthy]

Well Judah told Onan to have sex with Tamar. He did not do it and spilled his seed.
For one, we do not go around letting people sleep with other people to have children. It says nothing of modern circumstances. If the Bible gave an example of a man sleeping with his wife and him ejaculating on her or the bed, that would be quite important.

Judah told Onan to have sex with Tamar so that Onan’s older brother (Tamar’s dead husband) could have a child in his name. Onan was being selfish in his withdrawal and didn’t want to be saddled with his dead brother’s son.

 

[NotWorthy]

Ah, I do think they are the same type of discipline, but I can see why he may accept mine and not yours. We accept the Church to tell us how we should fully practice our faith,** he may not.**

You think?!?!?!?!

 

[Arnobius]

You take wrong. We are not under the Levitical law, gentiles NEVER have been. Is that what you believe?

What on Earth are you talking about?

We are examining the case of Onan… he undertook the Levirate marriage but refused to raise up children for his brother and instead spilled his seed on the ground, and for this the Lord slew him.

 

[Rightlydivide]

Judah told Onan to have sex with Tamar so that Onan’s older brother (Tamar’s dead husband) could have a child in his name. Onan was being selfish in his withdrawal and didn’t want to be saddled with his dead brother’s son.

Ok

 

[Rightlydivide]

What on Earth are you talking about?

We are examining the case of Onan… he undertook the Levirate marriage but refused to raise up children for his brother and instead spilled his seed on the ground, and for this the Lord slew him.

I am saying it is not applicable. Why would anyone be arguing contraception with me? It is not applicable. We will jsut leave it at that.

 

[NotWorthy]

You take wrong. We are not under the Levitical law, gentiles NEVER have been. Is that what you believe?

No, he’s not saying this. He’s saying that Onan’s act, to prevent the natural order of things, goes against God’s Law.

 

[Rightlydivide]

No, he’s not saying this. He’s saying that Onan’s act, to prevent the natural order of things, goes against God’s Law.

Reads too much into it. Not important to me anyway. My church has people who do not believe in it and people who do. Not applicable to me so I do not care.

 

[NotWorthy]

I am saying it is not applicable. Why would anyone be arguing contraception with me? It is not applicable. We will jsut leave it at that.

But in our circular dance on contraception, you’ve ignored the intent of the post.

What changed so that every other faith but Catholicism (and a few handfuls of other, probably) decided that it was no longer a sinful act. It seems, from the outsider, that the changed was orchestrated by the faithful, who wished to keep the church out of their bedrooms.

 

[Arnobius]

I am saying it is not applicable. Why would anyone be arguing contraception with me? It is not applicable. We will jsut leave it at that.

You brought up the disagreement over Onan.

You claimed that Onan was slain for something other than contraception. Most who try to deny it is claim it is a part of the violation of the Levirate marriage, and I was demonstrating it was not.

 

[Rightlydivide]

But in our circular dance on contraception, you’ve ignored the intent of the post.

What changed so that every other faith but Catholicism (and a few handfuls of other, probably) decided that it was no longer a sinful act. It seems, from the outsider, that the changed was orchestrated by the faithful, who wished to keep the church out of their bedrooms.

I have not ignored it. I am not interested in it all that much. I do not care what anyone thinks about it. I do not see your point in it but sure I can look at it more. It does not matter to me.

 

[Rightlydivide]

You brought up the disagreement over Onan.

You claimed that Onan was slain for something other than contraception. Most who try to deny it is claim it is a part of the violation of the Levirate marriage, and I was demonstrating it was not.

A Catholic brought up contraception. I pointed out that I do not think the Bible speaks to it but that Catholics bring up Onan. I did not bring it up, that would be stupid of me.

 

[NotWorthy]

I have not ignored it. I am not interested in it all that much. I do not care what anyone thinks about it. I do not see your point in it but sure I can look at it more. It does not matter to me.

A) You’ve stated that everything necessary is in the Bible
B) I’ve shown that Churches, especially those that follow the bible, changed their lists of sinful acts, even though the bible has not changed (except that little faux pas of removing 7 OT books).
C) Either, those that read the Bible and get inspiration from the Holy Spirit in interpreting it have changed those interpretations, and I’ve used contraception simply as an illustration, for we know that God doesn’t change.
D) Or, these are Church disciplines, which you already denied since it’s not in the Bible.

 

[Rightlydivide]

A) You’ve stated that everything necessary is in the Bible

yes I believe that

B) I’ve shown that Churches, especially those that follow the bible, changed their lists of sinful acts, even though the bible has not changed (except that little faux pas of removing 7 OT books).