1st Century Jews and the Christian Churches today

[Darryl_B]

I’ve been pondering on something lately. The Jewish faith was fragmented at the time of Christ. We have at least the Essenes, Pharisees and Sadducees. Yet Christ did not make any attempt at reuniting them. If the Jews were fragmented at the time of the First Coming, will the Christian Church remain fragmented by the time of the Second Coming? Is this by design?

It seems to me that Jesus Christ did unify the Jews but that was after his ascension and that was with the Gentiles and they were called Christian and the product was Catholic.

I am adament that Jesus Christ came to undo everything that had become wrong. One of those things happened at the tower of Babel.

 

[ConstantineTG]

It seems to me that Jesus Christ did unify the Jews but that was after his ascension and that was with the Gentiles and they were called Christian and the product was Catholic.

I am adament that Jesus Christ came to undo everything that had become wrong. One of those things happened at the tower of Babel.

While it is true that the expectation is that Jews should become Christians and follow Christ, that would be a taller order if they weren’t unified first. For one thing, the Sadducees didn’t believe in the Resurrection. How can they follow the Risen Lord?

 

[ConstantineTG]

Depends who’s defining it. I’m sure I would define the Church differently than you. And if I were to do so, you would probably say “Well of course we do that, of course that’s who we are, and I would expect that the most holy Catholic sacraments are the best possible means to that end.” But this is something that I would privately have doubts about, while wondering at the same time why it is that the things in my very definition of the Church don’t get mentioned in your very definition of the Church.

Hypothetically, if we did have that discussion.

Do you want that discussion? I can start a new thread.

 

[Darryl_B]

While it is true that the expectation is that Jews should become Christians and follow Christ, that would be a taller order if they weren’t unified first. For one thing, the Sadducees didn’t believe in the Resurrection. How can they follow the Risen Lord?

They would not change their belief when Jesus said I am the God of Abraham but it is a lot more compelling when Jesus Christ was raised from the dead.

Therefore Jesus Christ did unify the Jews but that was after his ascension and that was with the Gentiles and they were called Christian and the product was Catholic.

Paul spoke as being a Pharisee in the past tense.

 

[ConstantineTG]

They would not change their belief when Jesus said I am the God of Abraham but it is a lot more compelling when Jesus Christ was raised from the dead.

Therefore Jesus Christ did unify the Jews but that was after his ascension and that was with the Gentiles and they were called Christian and the product was Catholic.

Paul spoke as being a Pharisee in the past tense.

The Jews were never unified. Some accepted his teaching and became the followers of The Way, which in the beginning was thought to be a new Jewish sect.

Also, you read too much into the tenses of the English translation of St. Paul’s Epistle. If you read Acts, St. Paul was rushing back to Jerusalem in time for Pentecost. Not the Christian Pentecost, but the Jewish Pentecost. The Jewish converts to Christianity still practiced Judaism up until about the time of the destruction of the Temple. While St. Paul would have disaffiliated with the Pharisees by then, he certainly still followed the Jewish customs and rituals because the First Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 never removed the Jewish practices from the Christians, it only did not put that as a burden to Gentile converts who were never Jewish. They affirmed that the Jews will still have to follow Jewish law while the Gentiles do not.

 

[Darryl_B]

The Jews were not unified but they should be as Christian, if they were not unified there was something wrong in their approach that would have been dealt with at the time.

I am not sure how minor aspects of local customs could be considered a fractured Church. If it did I would have trouble with the concept of 22 rites.

Contextually this discussion was begun with the modern day position of a fractured Church in mind. Its a position I find very very sad.

Do you know how much time and energy and souls would be saved if the Church was just that. The universal (or “whole” since it means the same thing) in communion Church.

 

[Nine_Two]

hmmm? Sounds a lot like many modern day non-denoms I personally know.

Not really, the synagogue replaced it. It was more of a rejection of the idea that God was only in one specific place.

 

[joe371]

Good question. It most certainly is fragmented now…sadly. I am truly hoping East and West re-unite in my life time. I am certain our differences can be worked out.

BTW: I have never felt superior to any Eastern Orthodox or that we are right and you are wrong. I just want our leaders to work it out so we can all be ONE as Christ deemed it.

God Bless

 

[joe371]

I’ve been pondering on something lately. The Jewish faith was fragmented at the time of Christ. We have at least the Essenes, Pharisees and Sadducees. Yet Christ did not make any attempt at reuniting them. If the Jews were fragmented at the time of the First Coming, will the Christian Church remain fragmented by the time of the Second Coming? Is this by design?

Christian fragmentation by design? Any theories as to why it would be by design?

 

[Nine_Two]

The Temple was a big deal to the Pharisees as well as to the Sadducees, though perhaps it was a less singular focus for them.

In the case of the Essenes you are right, they rejected the Temple of their time and so presumably being banned from it was nothing to them but further confirmation of the error of those who had banned them.

That’s really what I mean. The Pharisees didn’t see the Temple as quite the big thing. Yes, they believed in the temple rituals, the sacrifices, good Jews coming for passover, etc. but they didn’t have the single-mindedness regarding it that the Sadducees did. I seem to recall from one of my classes that it was the Pharisees who were responsible for the spread of the synagogues as a form of worship.

For the Sadducees there was no legitimate worship outside of the temple.

 

[Nine_Two]

One of my beliefs is that the Eucharist is (comparatively) not that central to the faith, so to me it’s a relatively little deal that I can’t participate in that rite with you. Someone like you would find that it’s a much bigger deal if they were cut off from it somehow. Me, not as big a deal.

On the whole, the exclusion of Essenes from participation in bloody sacrifices- through and through, I think it really was pretty much like the exclusion of certain non-Catholics from the unbloody sacrifice. Roughly the same type of division after the fact if not in the breach itself, rather similar issues with authority, and also not a big deal to certain people for similar reasons.

Perhaps, as I said I’m not all that familiar with it. The Essenes were incredibly ritual oriented. So I don’t think it is quite that the related rituals were unimportant to them, they just didn’t believe the temple itself was the only, or necessarily the best, way.

But maybe they were excluded for matters of faith - as I said I don’t know much about that.

 

[Nine_Two]

Do you want that discussion? I can start a new thread.

I’d be very interested in that conversation. What is the Church but those who hold Communion with Christ?

 

[joe371]

Do you want that discussion? I can start a new thread.

Both the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Sacraments (Mysteries) are powerful channels by which Jesus showers down graces…

 

[ConstantineTG]

Both the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Sacraments (Mysteries) are powerful channels by which Jesus showers down graces…

Actually we have a different understanding of Sacraments and its purpose in the Christian life. We even have different understanding of Grace.

 

[joe371]

Actually we have a different understanding of Sacraments and its purpose in the Christian life. We even have different understanding of Grace.

OK…:thumbsup:I was simply sharing with others here, what a good friend of mine (eastern orthodox) had to say about that particular subject, which seemed to agree with the catholic understanding of the sacraments aka mysteries.

 

[ConstantineTG]

OK…:thumbsup:I was simply sharing with others here, what a good friend of mine (eastern orthodox) had to say about that particular subject, which seemed to agree with the catholic understanding of the sacraments aka mysteries.

In the 19th century, Western scholasticism entered some Orthodox countries like Russia and this is when the Orthodox suddenly have a defined 7 Sacraments and other things similar to Roman understanding of Sacraments. But that was never the case. Orthodoxy never defined a set number of Sacraments and we never put stringent rules around them. For example, we do not worry so much if some people do not come to church at all and never receive the Eucharist for years. Of course I’m talking about the desert monks here who lived in isolation. Obviously they were trying to live good lives, so they weren’t punished for that by saying they are committing mortal sin for not coming to church on Sunday. Even confession is not cut and dry. One can confess to a Spiritual Father who is not ordained, and then receive absolution from a priest without having to confess to that priest. It is just a completely different dynamic.

 

[joe371]

In the 19th century, Western scholasticism entered some Orthodox countries like Russia and this is when the Orthodox suddenly have a defined 7 Sacraments and other things similar to Roman understanding of Sacraments. But that was never the case. Orthodoxy never defined a set number of Sacraments and we never put stringent rules around them. For example, we do not worry so much if some people do not come to church at all and never receive the Eucharist for years. Of course I’m talking about the desert monks here who lived in isolation. Obviously they were trying to live good lives, so they weren’t punished for that by saying they are committing mortal sin for not coming to church on Sunday. Even confession is not cut and dry. One can confess to a Spiritual Father who is not ordained, and then receive absolution from a priest without having to confess to that priest. It is just a completely different dynamic.