2 different Baptisms?

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FRANKYG

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Hello friends.

I attend a charismatic prayer group, ( which I dont like very much) I go because my girlfriends mom likes to go, and doesnt have a ride to go.

Anyways, Yesterday they said something which sounds Protestant. they ( Prayer group leaders) said that we are firtst baptized with water when we are babies, But we still have to be baptized with the H.S. later IF we want Graces and want to live the christian Life.

Now i did a search, and no luck. I studied the NT and cant find reference to 2 baptisms, but one of water and spirit (John 3:5) that regenerates us, makes us born again, recieve Grace from god, and Saves us which is what the church teaches.

Am I missing something guys? Or Are they preaching Traditions of men??

Im open to your responds

Thank you very much 🙂
 
In the Creed we say, “We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.” I’m not sure exactly what context these people were speaking in, but I assume this “second baptism” they are referring to is the Rite of Confirmation. Perhaps? However that is not a baptism, so I’m a bit confused…
 
Exactly, that is what bugs me as well. Every Sunday we say we Believe in ONE baptism, so does St. Paul, One Lord, One Faith, One BAptism.

I also think they are confusing it to Confirmation, But they seem to think only if you do a retreat, then only will you be “baptized” in the H.S.

So Im ALMOST sure this a an Evangelical invention or taking verses out of Context
 
I’d say you are correct. Manifestation of some gift of the Holy Spirit does not constitute another baptism.

Chuck
 
Maybe you could follow up and ask them exactly what it is they’re talking about? I’d really like to know!
 
You are speaking of what is known as the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Bapitism means “an action of initiation or dedication”. It is not the baptism of Christian initiation where we receive the Holy Spirit, but simply a conscious decision by the believer to embrace the Holy Spirit and His gifts. It is simply a prayer and water is not used. The charismatic gifts of the Spirit are biblical and if you read the works of or about many of the great saints you see they were healers, or could read souls, etc. The term “baptism of the Holy Spirit” is a modern day expression— but the embracing of the Holy Spirit goes back to the upper room.

The charismatic movement definitely has flaws and people who go astray of Catholic teaching. But the openess to the Holy Spirit is closer to the origin of the Church than most lay Catholics I see today.
 
The problem is, Confirmation is the Sacrament that has its roots in Pentecost, so yes, Baptism of the Holy Spirit, as the term is frequently used, is a deeply protestant idea. Another tendency charismatics have, besides turning “Baptism of the Holy Spirit” into a subjective experience, is to consistently have the same types of “gifts” (such as speaking in tongues). However, your gift may be to be a good teacher, or to have overflowing love for the poor. Is not Confirmation a conscious decision on the part of the believer to accept God’s graces for your ministry?

In the New Testament, the word for “baptism” is used in reference to both what we would see as salvific baptism and confirmation. However, with the exception of major acts of God outside his Sacraments (and generally with doctrinal significance, such as the including of the gentiles) the “Baptism of the Holy Spirit” is imposed by the laying on of hands. The “desire to accept the gifts” is already present prior to the laying on of hands.
 
Prayer_Warrior said:
You are speaking of what is known as the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Bapitism means “an action of initiation or dedication”. It is not the baptism of Christian initiation where we receive the Holy Spirit, but simply a conscious decision by the believer to embrace the Holy Spirit and His gifts. It is simply a prayer and water is not used. The charismatic gifts of the Spirit are biblical and if you read the works of or about many of the great saints you see they were healers, or could read souls, etc. The term “baptism of the Holy Spirit” is a modern day expression— but the embracing of the Holy Spirit goes back to the upper room.

The charismatic movement definitely has flaws and people who go astray of Catholic teaching. But the openess to the Holy Spirit is closer to the origin of the Church than most lay Catholics I see today.
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great insight, So in other words, they are CORRECT in these teachings?? Thank you very much
 
FRANKYG said:
great insight, So in other words, they are CORRECT in these teachings?? Thank you very much
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FRANKY, if what Prayer_Warrior has said IS what they believe, than that is correct; if, however, what you wrote in your OP:
they ( Prayer group leaders) said that we are firtst baptized with water when we are babies, But we still have to be baptized with the H.S. later IF we want Graces and want to live the christian Life.
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accurately reflects their thinking, then they are in error. IOW, if they think the Holy Spirit is not received at Baptism (or at Confirmation), but only by the “baptism of the Holy Spirit”, they need to receive some instruction on the faith of the Church in this regard.
 
FRANKYG said:
Hello friends.

I attend a charismatic prayer group, ( which I dont like very much) I go because my girlfriends mom likes to go, and doesnt have a ride to go.

Anyways, Yesterday they said something which sounds Protestant. they ( Prayer group leaders) said that we are firtst baptized with water when we are babies, But we still have to be baptized with the H.S. later IF we want Graces and want to live the christian Life.

Now i did a search, and no luck. I studied the NT and cant find reference to 2 baptisms, but one of water and spirit (John 3:5) that regenerates us, makes us born again, recieve Grace from god, and Saves us which is what the church teaches.

Am I missing something guys? Or Are they preaching Traditions of men??

Im open to your responds

Thank you very much 🙂
Click to expand...
A good resource regarding the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is:

A Key to Charismatic Renewal in the Catholic Church** ISBN: 0-87029-033-9**
by Msgr. Vincent M. Walsh
Key of David Publications

Blessings,
granny
The human person is worthy of profound respect from the moment of conception.
 
The “baptism of the Holy Spirit” is not a sacrament nor does it confer any new power. Everything we need from the Holy Spirit is given when we receive the Sacraments. The problem is that many Catholics go through these Sacraments and remain unaware of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. They do not ask for the gifts and don’t believe that they could be empowered to perform miracles. So, this prayer of being baptized in the Spirit is a way of stirring up the graces we already have been given. It is absolutely NOT a belief of charismatics ( unless they have been led astray by a rogue) that they are receiving something from the Holy Spirit that wasn’t given in the Sacraments. They only believe that you need to yield to the Spirit and make yourself an instrument of Lord.

The phrase “baptism of the Holy Spirit” is indeed a Protestant phrase. But charismatic Christians have been around starting at Pentecost and throughout the centuries. The Doctor of prayer, St. Teresa of Avila, was very charismatic-- she testified to the experience of praying in tongues, locutions, etc. There were many other charismatic Saints as well (Pope JPII was charismatic and prayed in tongues). I doubt that any of them had other people lay hands on them and ask for the gifts of the Holy Spirit. They were just so immersed in God they were already in a humble state to yield to the Spirit. However, many modern Catholics hunger for God and desire to grow in love and in service. They just don’t know how to go about it. This is where others can help by praying with the laying on of hands. But that is clearly not a requirement to receiving the gifts.
 
Thank you guys alot. I have learned quite a bit from your posts. It seems to me the prayer group has the “idea” but is being mixed in with Protestant Ideas. I thank you guys for teaching what the Church Actually teaches and means by these gifts 😃 . . .
 
Prayer_Warrior said:
The Doctor of prayer, St. Teresa of Avila, was very charismatic-- she testified to the experience of praying in tongues
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Citation needed, please. I am very sure that Avila did no such thing. My wife is a Third Order Carmelite (for 19 years a professed OCDS) and she has never heard of this, despite the fact that she has read everything that Avila ever wrote and studied her extensively. Avila’s pupil, St. John of the Cross (also a Doctor) denounced such “sensory spirits” (The Ascent of Mount Carmel, Book 1, Chapter 6)
Prayer_Warrior said:
There were many other charismatic Saints
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Citation needed, please. I am very sure that no Canonized Catholic Saint has EVER “spoken in tongues” since the Apostolic age (in any manner which modern Pentecostals would recognize).
Prayer_Warrior said:
as well (Pope JPII was charismatic and prayed in tongues).
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Citation needed, please. I’m very sure This is a complete fabrication. I’ve seen this claim in several forums, and I’ve researched it and never found a source. I’ve challenged the OPs, and none can cite a valid source. If you can, you will be the first. Otherwise this is a complete falsehood, like so much of “charismatic Catholicism.”
 
DavidFilmer said:
Citation needed, please. I am very sure that no Canonized Catholic Saint has EVER “spoken in tongues” since the Apostolic age (in any manner which modern Pentecostals would recognize).
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Naturally, I would like a citation to compare with what I have read.

However, may I respectfully point out that Prayer-Warrior referred to the experience of praying in tongues and you are asking for “spoken in tongues”. In the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, praying in tongues and speaking in tongues are two distinctly different gifts.

May I also ask which religion are you referring to as “modern Pentecostals”?

Blessings,
granny

The human person is worthy of profound respect from the moment of conception
 
The following book is a thorough study of “Baptism in the Holy Spirit” and the charisms in the early Church. It includes; Tertullian in his Catholic years, Hilary of Poitiers, Basil, Gregory Nazianzus, Cyril of Jerusalem, John Chrysostom, Philoxenus, John of Apamea, Theodoret of Cyrrhus, Severus of Antioch, and Joseph Hzaazya. They represent Latin, Greek, and Syrian cultures, almost the whole of the Mediterranean seaboard.

Christian Initiation and Baptism in the Holy Spirit
Evidence from the First Eight Centuries
ISBN 0-8146-5009-0
by Kilian McDonnell, O.S.B. and George Montague, S.M.

The following book contains basic information about the classical list of nine gifts of the Holy Spirit as enumerated by St. Paul. St. Paul’s reference to the gift of praying in tongues is separate from this list and is thus treated separately in the book. The book explains the difference between Protestant Pentecostalism and the actual Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

A Key to Charismatic Renewal in the Catholic Church** ISBN: 0-87029-033-9**
by Msgr. Vincent M. Walsh
Key of David Publications
 
DavidFilmer said:
Citation needed, please. I am very sure that Avila did no such thing. My wife is a Third Order Carmelite (for 19 years a professed OCDS) and she has never heard of this, despite the fact that she has read everything that Avila ever wrote and studied her extensively. Avila’s pupil, St. John of the Cross (also a Doctor) denounced such “sensory spirits” (The Ascent of Mount Carmel, Book 1, Chapter 6)
Our Lord sometimes gives the soul feelings of jubilation and a strange prayer it doesn’t understand. I am writing about this favor so that if he grants it to you, you may give him such praise and know what is taking place . . . . It seems like gibberish, and certainly the experience is like that, for it is a joy so excessive that the soul wouldn’t want to enjoy it alone but wants to tell everyone about it so that they might help this soul to praise our Lord.

From Sixth Mansions, Chapter IV, No. 10, of The Interior Castle (as quoted in Catholic Book of Quotations, Our Sunday Visitor Publishing, 2004, p. 348).

Citation needed, please. I am very sure that no Canonized Catholic Saint has EVER “spoken in tongues” since the Apostolic age (in any manner which modern Pentecostals would recognize).

I said there were many charismatic Saints, this is not limited to speaking in tongues. St. Padre Pio was a charismatic saint. Whether you believe he had the stigmata, had the ability to read souls, or to bi-locate is entirely up to you.

Citation needed, please. I’m very sure This is a complete fabrication. I’ve seen this claim in several forums, and I’ve researched it and never found a source. I’ve challenged the OPs, and none can cite a valid source. If you can, you will be the first. Otherwise this is a complete falsehood, like so much of “charismatic Catholicism.”

The source is Fr. John Hampsch who witnessed Pope John Paul II praying in tongues at a charismatic conference of priests. He verbally told this to my Bible study group. He is a very holy man, but it is certainly up to you whether you believe his witness or not.
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Prayer_Warrior said:
Our Lord sometimes gives the soul feelings of jubilation and a strange prayer it doesn’t understand. I am writing about this favor so that if he grants it to you, you may give him such praise and know what is taking place . . . . It seems like gibberish, and certainly the experience is like that, for it is a joy so excessive that the soul wouldn’t want to enjoy it alone but wants to tell everyone about it so that they might help this soul to praise our Lord.

From Sixth Mansions, Chapter IV, No. 10, of The Interior Castle (as quoted in Catholic Book of Quotations, Our Sunday Visitor Publishing, 2004, p. 348).
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The full quote reads:
“In the midst of these experiences that are both painful and delightful together, our Lord sometimes gives the soul feelings of jubilation and a strange prayer it doesn’t understand. I am writing about this favor here so that if He grants it to you, you may give Him much praise and know what is taking place. It is, in my opinion, a deep union of the faculties; but our Lord nonetheless leaves them free that they might enjoy this joy - and the same goes for the senses - without understanding what it is they are enjoying or how they are enjoying. What I’m saying seems like gibberish, but certainly the experiences take place in this way, for the joy is so excessive the soul wouldn’t want to enjoy it alone but wants to tell everyone about it so that they might help this soul praise our Lord.” The Interior Castle, the Sixth Dwelling Places, chapter 6, vs.10, ICS Publications edition.
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This can’t be used definitively to support the idea that St. Teresa prayed in tongues. She doesn’t say whether the prayer is verbal or interior, but it’s more likely interior since it is in the higher mansion. From that interior joy overflows the desire of the soul to have others know of this joy and the greatness of the God Who gives it. The “gibberish” isn’t in the prayer, but in her attempt to explain this experience to her daughters in Carmel.
 
I agree it is not definitive. Neither is Rm 8:26," In the same way, the Spirit too comes to the aid of our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit itself intercedes with inexpressible groanings" But it is enough for me, with my present experience.

My apologies to the OP. This thread is about the “baptism of the Holy Spirit” and I inadvertently derailed it by talking about other charismatic gifts. Sorry!
 
Food for thought:

26 In the same way, the Spirit helps214 us in our weakness; for what is
needful to pray for, we do not know, but the Spirit himself intercedes
with our unarticulated groanings.215

215 “groanings”: Gr: stenagmoi:V, in the dative plural, does not mean that the
Holy Spirit groans, but that He intercedes by accessing our groanings, deep and
inaudible as they are. Accordingly, vr. 27 adds that God “searches the hearts of
men” where the groanings reside. The Spirit takes our groanings, interprets
them, and puts them in the appropriate form before God.

Taken from CASB, Epistle to the Romans.
 
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