2 disagreements so im not a real Catholic?

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This is the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Thick book huh? I agree with everything in this book. With the exeption of 2 issues. Should I change my religious affiliation and leave the Church? One of the issues is moral, the other is socialogical. Your thoughts. Peace 🙂
If you believe in everything in the Catechism except two issues then it begs the question…how could you? To believe in almost everything means you must believe in the authority and infallibility of the Church. If you accept some, why not all?
 
I have a dry sense of humor, so please forgive me, but I have to interject here - I think you would have just made Martin Luther proud! :rotfl:
Be careful! Martin Luther believed in some Catholic teachings that Presbyterians do not agree with.
 
Honestly not. I’m real busy with work and stuff. Do I need to in order to be Catholic?
Of course not, the point is that they might help you understand what the Church actually teaches and how you might fit in with that.
 
My friend, I urge you to follow the advice of Beth Cecilia. It is very wise. You were drawn to Catholicism for a reason, so why not stay with it. Another poster encouraged you to consult a priest and discuss with him your doubts. That too sounds like sound advice. In my own faith, there are those who accuse me of not being a “real” Jew since I am not Orthodox even though they realize–as in your case of being baptized a Catholic–that I remain Jewish no matter what. I try not to let them upset me too much by realizing that none of us is perfect and by trying daily to improve. If all else does not change your mind about the disagreements you have with the Church–including support from priests and the Church–you can still work it out through personal prayer and conversation with G-d.
Thank you my brother. I could not Be anything other than Catholic if I tried. I can dissassociate myself based on moral and ethical grounds. But I can never claim another. They got me. I was drawn to the Church by divine revelation. I will follow the advice of these two like you stated. And contrary to what the Orthodox Jews may say. I know you are a real Jew. 🙂 I have studied with conservative and the more liberal groups. I find them just a Jewish, but following more the spirit of the law, moreso than the letter. But even if I dissassociate myself. That alone will break my heart. I really dont want to. I am willing to keep my mouth shut, but Im not going to lie, and state I agree with something I do not. That in and of itself would be a sin. Thank you for your kind words. And I truly believe that those in the Jewish tradition are our close relatives, and You are Still the Chosen people of God. Peace 👍
 
Sure why not. If you don’t agree with the Catholicism then why be a Catholic. Nothing is wrong with a little healthy skepticism and questioning authority.
Now this is spooky. I just posted this almost exactly on my face book wall the other day. :eek: You been reading my mail? 😉
 
If you believe in everything in the Catechism except two issues then it begs the question…how could you? To believe in almost everything means you must believe in the authority and infallibility of the Church. If you accept some, why not all?
For the simple reason, both these issues touch on preserving life. I believe that the Magesterium is wrong on two issues. I cannot lie to myself or anyone else, and state otherwise. There are grey areas, in many issues. To deny that there are grey areas in some is just plain incorrect. Excellent question though. Neither of my disagreements are biblical in nature. Peace 🙂
 
Me, too! I’ll bet me & that Luther guy would have some good coffee conversations! 😉
Christmas and thanksgiving must have really been rough at his house…😃 I know he and I would have tangled on alot. 🙂
 
O.K., so what do you do if, despite trying your best and despite praying intensely about a certain truth proposed as divinely revealed by the UOM, you still cannot believe it? Are you automatically excommunicated? If so, what do you do?
There is no such state as “cannot believe”. Belief is an act of the will, not the intellect. A previous poster mentioned that there is a difference between disbelief and rejection.
 
Jesus is God. The Church is men, just fallible men. BIG difference.
So there is absolutely no ‘connection’ between Jesus and the Church?

Jesus is God, but He somehow came into this world for 33 years. . .and all the people who lived at the time that HE did somehow had the ‘chance’ to profit from His miracles, to be forgiven by the infallible One, to hear His perfect teachings from His own lips and be assured of knowing what was meant. . .

but ever afterward nobody else gets that kind of privilege? Nobody can ‘trust’ any person or group to ‘get it right?’ Jesus left infallible teachings but nobody agrees on what they are, and there is no authority by which we can know what is really true?

What a dark and sad concept. . .
 
There is no such state as “cannot believe”. Belief is an act of the will, not the intellect. A previous poster mentioned that there is a difference between disbelief and rejection.
I’m not sure I get this. When the Church says we must believe something with “divine and Catholic faith”, that is not the same as “religious submission of the will and intellect”, which I see as being an act of will. Actual belief seems like something that is out of my control…

I have to say I really struggle with the infallibility of the OUM. I was never taught this and suddenly I find out that the OUM is supposed to be infallible about 6 months ago and I am having a HUGE problem with this. Believe, me, I have read all the arguments for infallibility and I have prayed, prayed, prayed.

Can I still take Communion? Because honestly, if I can’t receive communion or absolution, I don’t see the point in staying in the Church.
 
I’m not sure I get this. When the Church says we must believe something with “divine and Catholic faith”, that is not the same as “religious submission of the will and intellect”, which I see as being an act of will. Actual belief seems like something that is out of my control…

I have to say I really struggle with the infallibility of the OUM. I was never taught this and suddenly I find out that the OUM is supposed to be infallible about 6 months ago and I am having a HUGE problem with this.

Can I still take Communion? Because honestly, if I can’t receive communion or absolution, I don’t see the point in staying in the Church.
My dear friend. You see the complexities. God bless you. By all means. I think you and I need to resolve to stay in the Church. You, like myself, have no other place to go. There is no other refuge. Im not looking for excuses to leave. on the contrary. Im looking for a reason to stay. We can pray for each other. Peace :signofcross:
 
For the simple reason, both these issues touch on preserving life. I believe that the Magesterium is wrong on two issues. I cannot lie to myself or anyone else, and state otherwise. There are grey areas, in many issues. To deny that there are grey areas in some is just plain incorrect. Excellent question though. Neither of my disagreements are biblical in nature. Peace 🙂
Have you carefully researched why the Church teaches what it does on these two issues? What in their reasoning is it that you disagree with? Have you been able to determine that your disagreement stems more from a misunderstanding of church teaching and what they actually teach?
 
My dear friend. You see the complexities. God bless you. By all means. I think you and I need to resolve to stay in the Church. You, like myself, have no other place to go. There is no other refuge. Im not looking for excuses to leave. on the contrary. Im looking for a reason to stay. We can pray for each other. Peace :signofcross:
Bless you too benidict! I feel that if I could get over my objections to infallibility, then everything else would fall into place, but it’s just not happening for me. I agree, I have no other home but with the Church, but it seems a bit unfair. On this site, I’m constantly called a “cafeteria Catholic” or I am told that I am not a “real Catholic”, and on the other hand, I have people telling me “once a Catholic, always a Catholic”. Ahhh!

I’ve also been vaguely told that to object to dogma is to place oneself outside the Church and that I shouldn’t be taking communion. Well, I am here for the sacraments. If I can’t receive those, I just don’t know what to do, and it’s not because I’m not trying!

Like you said, I would LOVE to have it all become clear for me and to have all my objections melt away.

In the meantime, I obey the Church, but I don’t know if mere obedience is enough 😦
 
I have to say I really struggle with the infallibility of the OUM. I was never taught this and suddenly I find out that the OUM is supposed to be infallible about 6 months ago and I am having a HUGE problem with this. Believe, me, I have read all the arguments for infallibility and I have prayed, prayed, prayed.

.
You need to understand exactly what infallibility of the OUM means. It does not mean that we have to take as gospel every utterance of USCCB or hang on every word local Bishop says.
 
This is the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Thick book huh? I agree with everything in this book. With the exeption of 2 issues. Should I change my religious affiliation and leave the Church? One of the issues is moral, the other is socialogical. Your thoughts. Peace 🙂
Benidict,
You’ve asked a very important question and one that I have been dealing with in considering Catholicism over the last two years. It’s difficult to understand exactly which teachings are actually infallible and must be accepted. It’s not as simple as saying one must only submit to the ex cathedra teachings. It goes way beyond that as Lumen Gentium from Vatican II demonstrates. Lumen Gentium should be read in its entirety; this is the part that causes me the most concern:

DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
LUMEN GENTIUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964

“. . . . .This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking. . . . .”

Link: vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

I did find an interesting commentary on Non-Infallibility: The Papacy And Rahner, by Rev. Regis Scanlon, O.F.M. Cap., at the Catholic Culture Library. Many of my concerns about Lumen Gentium are discussed, there. So, I’m not the only one who has questions about "submission of mind and will to the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra. The article does speak of non-infallible propositions of the Vatican congregations as “speculative judgments.”

Non-Infallibility: The Papacy And Rahner, by Rev. Regis Scanlon, O.F.M. Cap., at the Catholic Culture Library.
Link: catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=4210

"Karl Rahner, however, stated that this teaching in No. 25 of Lumen Gentium " . . . is not to be propounded in such a way that in practice an absolute assent is still demanded or that there were no instance in which one might withhold assent."3 "

"Now, John Paul II has stated: "With regard to the non-infallible expressions of the authentic magisterium of the church, these should be received with religious submission of mind and will (cf. Lumen Gentium, 25).“15 Again, in the absence of anything to the contrary, one must interpret John Paul II’s above statement consistent with the interpretation given to this matter by Pius IX and Pius X. This would mean that theologians and laity are bound by these Pontifical congregation statements merely with regard to writing and teaching.”

"So, this religious submission of will and mind, which John Paul II says must be given to non-infallible statements of the papal magisterium means, first of all, that the theologian must submit his will and mind (assent) to the decisions of the Vatican congregations “conformably with his (the pope’s) manifest mind and intention.” But, since it is the expressed intention of the papal magisterium that these propositions of the Vatican congregations are non-infallible, as speculative judgments in themselves, one must assume that the pope does not intend that Catholics and theologians be bound to give a submission of will and mind (an assent) to the propositions, themselves, as speculative judgments. He only intends Catholics and theologians to give a submission of will and mind (an assent) to these proposals as the practical judgment of the Pontifical congregations. "

“So, while external or public questioning and dissent in verbal or written form is never permitted, internal questioning, along with further investigation and discussion of the matter with a Vatican congregation, is permitted. Otherwise, possible error or discrepancies on either side would never be discovered and rectified.18”

I’ve also found it very difficult to get concrete answers regarding which teachings actually fall under the category of “Faith and Morals.”

As my friend gurneyhalleck1 has said, Catholicism is an all or nothing package (paraphrased.) I still haven’t figured out what the whole package is; but I’m still here. 🙂

Peace,
Anna
 
Can. 750 §1. A person must believe with divine and Catholic faith all those things proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn magisterium of the Church or by its ordinary and universal magisterium which is manifested by the common adherence of the Christian faithful under the leadership of the sacred magisterium.

Can. 752 Although not an assent of faith, a religious submission of the intellect and will must be given to a doctrine which the Supreme Pontiff or the college of bishops declares concerning faith or morals when they exercise the authentic magisterium.
I’m not sure I get this. When the Church says we must believe something with “divine and Catholic faith”, that is not the same as “religious submission of the will and intellect”, which I see as being an act of will. Actual belief seems like something that is out of my control…

I have to say I really struggle with the infallibility of the OUM. I was never taught this and suddenly I find out that the OUM is supposed to be infallible about 6 months ago and I am having a HUGE problem with this. Believe, me, I have read all the arguments for infallibility and I have prayed, prayed, prayed.

Can I still take Communion? Because honestly, if I can’t receive communion or absolution, I don’t see the point in staying in the Church.
Dear friend, may God continue to bless you. Let me point out the struggling with the doctrine of infallibility of the OUM is not the same as rejecting the doctrine. In that respect, it seems to me that you are still in communion with the Church.

I still persist in saying that belief is always an act of the will, not the intellect. I don’t think the canons I quoted above can be used to contest that. I think the canons are trying to express a difference in amount of faith to be put into a particular doctrine, or perhaps the permanence of that faith, or the importance of the faith put into it, rather than a completely different kind of faith. See how 752 implies that 750 requires an assent of faith, and “giving assent” is still a verb, and an act of the will.
 
This thread was just what I needed. I am a capitalist. The church doesn’t seem to accept that. I am also pro death penalty.
In Catholic social teachings—exception abortion, same sex marriages, you do not need to agree about the death penalty. And the Church is not against capitalism, just the abuse of it, and certainly against socialism or communism or the welfare state.

People have a way of twisting the Church’s teachings around in a false way.
 
Benidict,
You’ve asked a very important question and one that I have been dealing with in considering Catholicism over the last two years. It’s difficult to understand exactly which teachings are actually infallible and must be accepted. It’s not as simple as saying one must only submit to the ex cathedra teachings. It goes way beyond that as Lumen Gentium from Vatican II demonstrates. Lumen Gentium should be read in its entirety; this is the part that causes me the most concern:

DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
LUMEN GENTIUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964

“. . . . .This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking. . . . .”

Link: vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

I did find an interesting commentary on Non-Infallibility: The Papacy And Rahner, by Rev. Regis Scanlon, O.F.M. Cap., at the Catholic Culture Library. Many of my concerns about Lumen Gentium are discussed, there. So, I’m not the only one who has questions about "submission of mind and will to the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra. The article does speak of non-infallible propositions of the Vatican congregations as “speculative judgments.”

Non-Infallibility: The Papacy And Rahner, by Rev. Regis Scanlon, O.F.M. Cap., at the Catholic Culture Library.
Link: catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=4210

"Karl Rahner, however, stated that this teaching in No. 25 of Lumen Gentium " . . . is not to be propounded in such a way that in practice an absolute assent is still demanded or that there were no instance in which one might withhold assent."3 "

"Now, John Paul II has stated: "With regard to the non-infallible expressions of the authentic magisterium of the church, these should be received with religious submission of mind and will (cf. Lumen Gentium, 25).“15 Again, in the absence of anything to the contrary, one must interpret John Paul II’s above statement consistent with the interpretation given to this matter by Pius IX and Pius X. This would mean that theologians and laity are bound by these Pontifical congregation statements merely with regard to writing and teaching.”

"So, this religious submission of will and mind, which John Paul II says must be given to non-infallible statements of the papal magisterium means, first of all, that the theologian must submit his will and mind (assent) to the decisions of the Vatican congregations “conformably with his (the pope’s) manifest mind and intention.” But, since it is the expressed intention of the papal magisterium that these propositions of the Vatican congregations are non-infallible, as speculative judgments in themselves, one must assume that the pope does not intend that Catholics and theologians be bound to give a submission of will and mind (an assent) to the propositions, themselves, as speculative judgments. He only intends Catholics and theologians to give a submission of will and mind (an assent) to these proposals as the practical judgment of the Pontifical congregations. "

“So, while external or public questioning and dissent in verbal or written form is never permitted, internal questioning, along with further investigation and discussion of the matter with a Vatican congregation, is permitted. Otherwise, possible error or discrepancies on either side would never be discovered and rectified.18”

I’ve also found it very difficult to get concrete answers regarding which teachings actually fall under the category of “Faith and Morals.”

As my friend gurneyhalleck1 has said, Catholicism is an all or nothing package (paraphrased.) I still haven’t figured out what the whole package is; but I’m still here. 🙂

Peace,
Anna
Thank you for this Dear Sister. Honestly, I would rather spend more time in purgatory, than give up on my conciencious objections. I would rather throw myself on the mercy of Christ. He knows my heart, and why I believe what I do. I could Just lie, and say I agree. but God would know this, and a lie like this is of the devil. And although I know there will be those who say there are not. There ARE ambiguities, and grey areas in the Catechism. If those who say it is perfect had truly read it, they would in all honety have to agree. I would advise you to think long and hard before making a decision. as for me, Mine is already made. I dont think I could have chosen another way. It was Catholicsm, Judaism. or Atheism. 2 of these groups God has spoken to. The third doesnt even have a good holiday…Peace to you and yours. 🙂
 
Roman Catholic Doctrine Vs. The Doctrinal Teaching of the Word of God

Eternal life is a merited reward [1821, 2010]. - Roman Catholicism
Eternal life is the free gift of God (Romans 6:23)

No one can know if he will attain eternal life [1036, 2005] - Roman Catholicism
The believer can know that he has eternal life by the Word of God (1 John 5:13)

The Roman Catholic Church is necessary for salvation [846]. - Roman Catholicism
There is salvation in no one but the Lord Jesus Christ, “for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12)

Purgatory is necessary to atone for sin and clean the soul [1030-1031]. - Roman Catholicism
Purgatory does not exist. Jesus made purification for sins on the cross (Hebrews 1:3)

Mary was preserved from all stain of original sin from the first instant of her conception (the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception) [490-492].
Mary, a descendant of Adam, was born in sin (Psalm 51:5; Romans 5:12)

Mary is the Mother of the Church [963, 975]. - Roman Catholicism
Mary was the earthly mother of Jesus ( John 2:1)

The Magisterium is the authoritative teacher of the Church. [85-87]. - Roman Catholicism
The Holy Spirit is the authoritative teacher of the church (John 14:26; John 16:13, I John 2:27)

The pope, as the Bishop of Rome, is the successor of Peter [882, 936] - Roman Catholicism
Peter had no successor, nor was he a pope.

The pope is infallible in his authoritative teaching [891]. - Roman Catholicism
God alone is infallible (Numbers 23:19)

Scripture and Tradition together are the Word of God [81, 85, 97, 182]. - Roman Catholicism
Scripture is the Word of God (John 10:35, 2 Timothy 3:15-17, 2 Peter 1:20-21). Tradition is the words of men (Mark 7:1-13).

The sacrificial work of redemption is continually carried out through the Sacrifice of the Mass. [1364,1405, 1846]. - Roman Catholicism
The sacrificial work of redemption was finished when Christ gave His life for us on the cross (Ephesians 1:7, Hebrews 1:3).

God desires that consecrated bread and wine be worshiped as divine. [1378-1381] - Roman Catholicism
God forbids the worship of any object, even t hose intended to represent Him (Exodus 20:4-5, Isaiah 42:8)

Justification is lost through mortal sin [1033, 1855, 1874] - Roman Catholicism
Justification cannot be lost. Those whom God justifies will be saved from the wrath of God (Romans 5:8-9).

Justification is furthered by sacraments and good works [1212, 1392, 2010] - Roman Catholicism
Justification is the imputation of the perfect righteousness of God (2 Corinthians 5:21). In Christ the believer has been made complete (Colossians 2:10).

Salvation is attained by cooperating with grace through faith, good works, and participation in the sacraments [183, 1129, 1815, 2002]. - Roman Catholicism
Salvation is attained by grace through faith apart from works (Ephesians 2:8-9). Good works are the result, not the cause, of salvation (Ephesians 2:10).

Mary, “the All-Holy,” lived a perfectly sinless life [411, 493]. - Roman Catholicism
Mary was a sinner; God alone is sinless (Luke 18:19, Romans 3:23, Revelation 15:4).

Mary was a virgin before, during, and after the birth of Christ [496-511]. - Roman Catholicism
Mary remained a virgin until after the birth of Jesus (Matthew 1:25). Later she had other children (Matthew 13:55-56, Psalm 69:8).

Each Sacrifice of the Mass appeases God’s wrath against sin [1371, 1414]. - Roman Catholicism
The once-for-all sacrifice of the cross fully appeased God’s wrath against sin. (Hebrews 10:12-18).

The Bishops, with the Pope, as their head, rule the universal church. [883, 894-896]. - Roman Catholicism
Christ, the head of the body is the Head of the Church. (Colossians 1:18).

The faithful receive the benefits of the cross in fullest measure through the Sacrifice of the Mass [1366, 1407]. - Roman Catholicism
Believers receive the benefits of the cross in fullest measure in Christ through faith (Ephesians 1:3-14).

God has exalted Mary in heavenly glory as Queen of Heaven and Earth [966]. She is to be praised with special devotion [971, 2675]. - Roman Catholicism
The name of the Lord is to be praised, for He alone is exalted above heaven and earth (Psalm 148:13). God commands, “You shall have no other gods before Me.” (Exodus 20:3).

Mary is the co-mediator to whom we can entrust all our cares and petitions 9 968-970, 2677] - Roman Catholicism
Christ Jesus is the one mediator to whom we can entrust all our cares and petitions (1 Timothy 2:5, John 14:13-14, 1 Peter 5:7).

Mary is the co-redeemer, for she participate with Christ in the painful act of redemption [618, 964, 968, 970]. - Roman Catholicism
Christ alone is the Redeemer, for He alone suffered and died for sin (1 Peter 1:18-19).

The sacrifice of the cross is perpetuated in the Sacrifice of the Mass [1323, 1382] - Roman Catholicism
The Sacrifice of the cross is finished (John 19:30).

Indulgences dispensed by the Church for acts of piety release sinners from temporal punishment [1471-1473]. - Roman Catholicism
Jesus releases believers from their sins by His blood. (Revelation 1:5).

The Magisterium has the right to define truth found only obscurely or implicitly in revelation. [66, 88, 2035, 2051]. - Roman Catholicism
No one has the right to go beyond what is written in Scripture (1 Corinthians 4:6, Proverbs 30:5-6).

Scripture and Tradition together are the Church’s supreme role of faith [80, 82]. - Roman Catholicism
Scripture is the church’s rule of faith (Mark 7:7-13, 2 Timothy 3:16-17).
 
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