2 New Cardinals to come from Eastern Churches

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But I am directly opposing your implicit position i.e. that everyone who is represented MUST have a say on who becomes the Pope.

But the Papacy election process is not based on representation of opinions. It is considered to be the guidance of the Holy Spirit. In this sense, regardless of whether or not the Patriarchs were involved in the election process is reflective of whether or not you must give assent to the authority.

So at some point in time in the future, when and if God has decreed by Divine Providence that the Patriarchs be involved in the election process for the Holy Spirit to work through, it will happen. But until then, you cannot use the lack of say by the patriarchs on the election of the Pope as grounds for complaint.
This is not how a synod was seen as. Let us make no false pretenses here about how the Holy Spirit works though our bishops. Its not “magic”. In the past in every council or synod, there must be proper representation. And even in Ecumenical Councils it required the assent of all bishops, even those who were not present, before it was called Ecumenical.

As for complaints, yet it is indeed valid. Like I say, Patriarchs are elected by a synod of bishops who are under them. If the Pope is the “Patriarchs of Patriarch”, if the entire Church is “under” him, then all Churches must have representation. That is the way the Church has always done it from the beginning. Even as the ecclesiology developed over the centuries, every bishop under another’s authority would have a say about that bishop. I can understand why not all Roman bishops vote, given the sheer number of Roman bishops. But Eastern Churches are separate Churches, thus representation is just and right.
 
This is not how a synod was seen as. Let us make no false pretenses here about how the Holy Spirit works though our bishops. Its not “magic”. In the past in every council or synod, there must be proper representation. And even in Ecumenical Councils it required the assent of all bishops, even those who were not present, before it was called Ecumenical.
My point my friend is simple. IF there had been no proper representation i.e. if Orthodox Patriarch Bob had a back injury, or Cardinal James had a leg injury is irrelevant to whether or not the Council is valid or the election is valid.
As for complaints, yet it is indeed valid. Like I say, Patriarchs are elected by a synod of bishops who are under them. If the Pope is the “Patriarchs of Patriarch”, if the entire Church is “under” him, then all Churches must have representation. That is the way the Church has always done it from the beginning. Even as the ecclesiology developed over the centuries, every bishop under another’s authority would have a say about that bishop. I can understand why not all Roman bishops vote, given the sheer number of Roman bishops. But Eastern Churches are separate Churches, thus representation is just and right.
You are arguing like you know some ontological truth that “all represented must have say in electing the authority”. Such a truth unfortunately does not exist in either church.

So I am not quiet sure why you argue this.

Also, the Eastern Churches are not separate “churches”. There is only one Church. Perhaps that is what is throwing you off?
 
As for complaints, yet it is indeed valid. Like I say, Patriarchs are elected by a synod of bishops who are under them. If the Pope is the “Patriarchs of Patriarch”, if the entire Church is “under” him, then all Churches must have representation. That is the way the Church has always done it from the beginning. Even as the ecclesiology developed over the centuries, every bishop under another’s authority would have a say about that bishop. I can understand why not all Roman bishops vote, given the sheer number of Roman bishops. But Eastern Churches are separate Churches, thus representation is just and right.
👍

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Upon reception of the biretta the new Cardinal promises fealty and obedience to the Roman Church. I think that amounts to subjugation.
Oh. I see what you mean. It seems like the oath is a holdover from the days of the Great Western Schism. It sure looks bad.

But in light of that background (the Great Western Schism), on the other hand, the point of the obedience may not be subjugation, but merely loyalty to the correct, legitimately elected Roman Pontiff.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Also, the Eastern Churches are not separate “churches”. There is only one Church. Perhaps that is what is throwing you off?
I’m not sure what you mean here. Of course the Eastern Catholic Churches are separate churches. (Are you perhaps confusing the phrase “separate churches” with “separated churches”?)
 
It was not meant to be polemical. It was just a turn of phrase. The thrust of this thread is not the history of the Eastern and Oriental Catholic churches. If you will, in addition to the negative criticism, please suggest the more appropriate verb to denote the process by which Eastern and Oriental Catholic churches elected to be in communion with the Latin Catholic Church.
Alright, but I don’t think much suggestion is needed, since it’s just a matter of not adding the word “back”. (For example, speaking of “Orthodox converting to Catholicism” vs saying “Orthodox coming *back *to Catholicism”.)
 
I’m not sure what you mean here. Of course the Eastern Catholic Churches are separate churches. (Are you perhaps confusing the phrase “separate churches” with “separated churches”?)
I was talking from the perspective of the strict meaning of the word Church. There cannot be multiple Churches. There is only one Church.

The reason why I want to adopt this strict definition is because the issue seems to be a matter of representation. I just wanted to clarify that just like some might not be present at an Ecumenical council and the Council woulds till be binding on the entire Church, so would it be the case with elections.

So it is not essential that Eastern Church’s leaders vote in a Papal Election if we consider a strict definition of the word Church. But if they are given a chance, that is nice. But not essential.
 
I was talking from the perspective of the strict meaning of the word Church. There cannot be multiple Churches. There is only one Church.
Doctrinally speaking, according to Vatican 2, the fullness of the Church indeed exists with any particular Church having an orthodox bishop. So there can be multiple Churches. It is a great Mystery - exactly like the fact that even though there are multitudes of Eucharistic celebrations, there is really only one Eucharist. So it is valid to say both that there are many Churches united as one body, and that there is one Church.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Eufrosnia

you said
I was talking from the perspective of the strict meaning of the word Church. There cannot be multiple Churches. There is only one Church.
Very true - the Church of Jesus Christ - which includes us all - Catholic and Orthodox and all the Protestant denominations as well !
 
Very true - the Church of Jesus Christ - which includes us all - Catholic and Orthodox and all the Protestant denominations as well !
Actually, not all Protestant denominations. Some of the Radical Protestants don’t even validly baptize, so I don’t know how they can be included in the definition of “Church.”

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Eufrosnia

you said

Very true - the Church of Jesus Christ - which includes us all - Catholic and Orthodox and all the Protestant denominations as well !
Actually, not to be picky again, but the Protestant Denominations are not actually considered part of the church in the same way Eastern Catholics or Orthodox are.

In fact, I think all council documents and other documents refer to Protestant Denominations as “Ecclesial Communities”.
 
Actually, not all Protestant denominations. Some of the Radical Protestants don’t even validly baptize, so I don’t know how they can be included in the definition of “Church.”

Blessings,
Marduk
You beat me to it 🙂 You are correct, they are not considered as meeting the definition of Church.
 
My point my friend is simple. IF there had been no proper representation i.e. if Orthodox Patriarch Bob had a back injury, or Cardinal James had a leg injury is irrelevant to whether or not the Council is valid or the election is valid.
Actually, for a council it does matter. This is First Millennium Ecclesiology we are talking about, which the Eastern Catholic Churches subscribe to this day. Also, even with Vatican I, Rome still sought the assent of the Melkite Bishops to approve Pastor Aeternus and even coerced them into signing when they refused to sign it without the changes they demanded. If indeed the Holy Spirit has spoken through whoever was at the council, why even bother coercing bishops? Why not tell them, “sorry, but this is what the Holy Spirit says.”
 
He is still counted among the Cardinals, and participated in the 2005 Conclave.

Український Католицький Університет
Ah, there you go. Google hasn’t failed you my friend 😉

Yes, I know he is still on the roster of Cardinals. My fear is when he is done in this world, +Sviatoslav would be made Cardinal. And given the UGCC has the goal of being recognized a Patriarchate by 2020, I doubt he’ll refuse. Now it not the time to get the ire of Rome.
 
May I ask –

What is the rationale for claiming that being named a Cardinal is a sign of subjugation? I know that in the first millenium, cardinals were basically papal servants, but in the second millenium, they developed into counsellors and electors.

I can understand an objection based on the first millenium conception of a cardinal, but what is so objectionable about the second-millenium development?

Blessings,
Marduk
Keep in mind that the elector function is a later “restoration”…

Cardinal originally meant having been incardinated to the diocese of Rome. When seen elsewhere, they were usually presbyters and assigned as legates, tho’ some deacons and minor clerics were sent on legate duty with priests.

Cardinal later became the body of men working in the administratum of the papal ecclesiastical province. At that time, tho’, elector was a separate office… and consent of the laity and clergy of Rome had to be obtained…

Only later still did the Cardinals select the Pope without reference to the Clergy of Rome as a whole - tho all cardinals are technically incardinated dually into their own see (if a bishop) or the see of the home diocese, and into Rome.

-=-=-=-

It’s worth noting that under current canon law, Patriarchs are to be made members of the College of Cardinals, in the order of Cardinals-Patriarch in their own right with a cardinal see of their patriarchal see (unless their predecessor still fills the cardinalate see), as a matter of course.

Technically, all they have to do is ask to be elevated to the dignity. But likewise, a couple have refused to accept the Cardinalate, citing that they don’t feel right in selecting the Bishop of Rome.

Most primatial bishops of Major Archiepiscopal and Patriarchal sees have been elevated to cardinal since HB Slippij, tho HB’s photo in the Gallero is unflattering to both he and the “dignity”…

Many of us would love to see all primates of sui iuris churches granted elector status without the need for the Cardinal title… HH could simply make it so with a Bull… But that’s unlikely to happen.

-=-=-=-

newadvent.org/cathen/03333b.htm Cardinal
newadvent.org/cathen/11456a.htm Papal Election
 
I was talking from the perspective of the strict meaning of the word Church. There cannot be multiple Churches. There is only one Church.

The reason why I want to adopt this strict definition is because the issue seems to be a matter of representation. I just wanted to clarify that just like some might not be present at an Ecumenical council and the Council woulds till be binding on the entire Church, so would it be the case with elections.

So it is not essential that Eastern Church’s leaders vote in a Papal Election if we consider a strict definition of the word Church. But if they are given a chance, that is nice. But not essential.
Well, I stand by my point that the Eastern Catholic Churches are just that: Churches (*sui iuris *Churches to be more precise). However, I agree with you that a papal election could be valid even without being representative of the universal church (e.g. if all the cardinals were Italian).
 
As for the electors, I’ll go one better and say that IMHO the clergy of every diocese should elect their own bishop, with the election to be recognized by the Metropolitan. And the bishops of an ecclesiastical province should elect their own Metropolitan with the election to be recognized by the Primate.
That would be the ideal, but with our culture as corrupt as it is, I fear election campaigns for clergy could be a profound embarrassment.
And the Metropolitan Archbishops should elect their own Primate, with the election recognized by Rome. The way it was done in the 1st Millennium.
Right. St. Ambrose was acclaimed Bishop of Milan by the people before he was ordained a priest.
Of course none of that will never happen again.
Unless God wants it to happen, in which case it will happen.
 
You said that the Eastern Churches accepted the Popes “leadership”. If you look at the history of Vatican I, the Melkite Bishops refused to sign-off on Pastor Aeternus as it was (and is) written.
Didn’t they sign off on it with the addendum, “excepting the rights and privileges of eastern patriarchs”?

To me, that counts as signing off on it, since I don’t think Pastor Aeternus limits their rights and privileges - not when the document explicitly says that papal supremacy exists to build up, support, and defend the authority of the Roman bishop’s episcopal brothers throughout the world. It’s that section that quotes St. Leo the Great, who said something like (and I paraphrase from memory), “My honor is the honor of my brethren.”
Like I say, Patriarchs are elected by a synod of bishops who are under them. If the Pope is the “Patriarchs of Patriarch”, if the entire Church is “under” him, then all Churches must have representation. That is the way the Church has always done it from the beginning. Even as the ecclesiology developed over the centuries, every bishop under another’s authority would have a say about that bishop. I can understand why not all Roman bishops vote, given the sheer number of Roman bishops. But Eastern Churches are separate Churches, thus representation is just and right.
You and this thread’s other Oriental Catholics are raising very strong points, I think. My attitude used to be that cardinals are simply those bishops whose job it is to elect the pope, and thus I didn’t understand why it’s problematic for a patriarch to be a cardinal (as long as it’s not understood as an “elevation”).

But now I see the problems: cardinals are, at least symbolically/nominally, the clergy of Rome, and thus they swear obedience to the Church of Rome. That does indeed seem inappropriate for a patriarch or “major archbishop” of an eastern Catholic church.

And I think you also raise a very logical point in saying that because the bishop of Rome has jurisdiction over all the churches of the Catholic Church, each church’s leadership ought to be represented to some degree in a papal conclave. Tossing a red hat at a few patriarchs, the above problems notwithstanding, is not the answer.

I think we should pray that one day malphono’s solution will be reinstated in general throughout the Catholic Church:

A church’s clergy elect its bishop, confirmed by the metropolitan.
A province’s bishops elect its metropolitan, conformed by the primate.
A nation’s/region’s metropolitan bishops elect its primate, confirmed by the Holy See.
The Catholic Church’s autonomous churches’ head bishops participate in papal conclaves.

Perhaps we’re slowly getting off on the right foot, since at least the patriarchal eastern Catholic churches’ synods elect their own patriarchs?
 
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