#2 Questions Protestants Can't Answer

[rogue13]

John Martignoni has posted the 2nd video in his “Questions Protestants Can’t Answer” YouTube series. You can view it at this link: youtube.com/watch?v=ykU8Ku4ENDs

 

[Sir_Knight]

What are the two questions?

 

[Lutheranteach]

That was the most underwhelming discussion topic I’ve seen in a long time and the question itself really displayed he had no real understanding of most protestant thought on the just what works/faith all means.

 

[inkaneer]

That was the most underwhelming discussion topic I’ve seen in a long time and the question itself really displayed he had no real understanding of most protestant thought on the just what works/faith all means.

Maybe that is because it keeps changoing. Like hitting a target moving through time. What is a bullseye yesterday is a near miss today and tomorrow may not even register on the traget.

But the real question protestants can’t answer is where is sola scriptura in the early church? Even in Acts at the council of Jerusalem the Apostles rejected sola scriptura. The sola scripturists were in fact the Judiacizers.

 

[jmcrae]

John Martignoni has posted the 2nd video in his “Questions Protestants Can’t Answer” YouTube series. You can view it at this link: youtube.com/watch?v=ykU8Ku4ENDs

I don’t think the Church teaches that we are saved by works. Obedience, yes - but not works, as such. I also don’t know very many Protestants who would say that obedience is unimportant.

Obviously, they have a different list of what they think Jesus wants us to do, in order to be obedient - but the concept itself is still very much there.

 

[BrianH]

So, salvation is by faith and works? He says that is what Catholics believe. Which I thought was not exactly it…

 

[rogue13]

So, salvation is by faith and works? He says that is what Catholics believe. Which I thought was not exactly it…

The video only gives a small slice of what Catholic teaching on salvation is all about, since it’s primary purpose is apparently to make Protestants think about what they believe and why. For more on what the Catholic Church teaches on the subject (and what Martignoni himself teaches), check out his website, www.biblechristiansociety.com. A good summary of what Catholics believe regarding salvation is Gal 5:6, “In Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.” Faith WORKING through love.

Catholics believe salvation is a process - ongoing, dynamic. Not a static, one-time event. We receive our initial justification/salvation through Baptism as a free gift of God’s grace - we do not “earn” it. After Baptism, however, we must abide in Christ (see John 15:1-6, for example) in order to stay in a state of grace (saved). We abide in Christ through our faith and works - both of which are by the grace of God. When we say we are “saved by faith and works,” that is just shorthand for this process of responding to God’s free gift of His saving grace with our faith and works - both which come as a result of His grace.

 

[rogue13]

That was the most underwhelming discussion topic I’ve seen in a long time and the question itself really displayed he had no real understanding of most protestant thought on the just what works/faith all means.

Dittos to what Inkaneer said. If he doesn’t have an understanding of most Protestant thought on the topic, than neither do most Protestants I’ve come across. Which version of sola fide is the dogma du jour? The disconnect is not between Martignoni and the “real” Protestant thought on the matter, the disconnect is between Protestants and the “real” Protestant thought on the matter.

By the way, I noticed you didn’t answer the question. Can a man’s faith alone save him?

 

[BrianH]

The video only gives a small slice of what Catholic teaching on salvation is all about, since it’s primary purpose is apparently to make Protestants think about what they believe and why. For more on what the Catholic Church teaches on the subject (and what Martignoni himself teaches), check out his website, www.biblechristiansociety.com. A good summary of what Catholics believe regarding salvation is Gal 5:6, “In Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.” Faith WORKING through love.

Catholics believe salvation is a process - ongoing, dynamic. Not a static, one-time event. We receive our initial justification/salvation through Baptism as a free gift of God’s grace - we do not “earn” it. After Baptism, however, we must abide in Christ (see John 15:1-6, for example) in order to stay in a state of grace (saved). We abide in Christ through our faith and works - both of which are by the grace of God. When we say we are “saved by faith and works,” that is just shorthand for this process of responding to God’s free gift of His saving grace with our faith and works - both which come as a result of His grace.

How is that different than Wesley’s view of Sanctification?

Salvation is not a static, one-time event in our lives. It is the ongoing experience of God’s gracious presence transforming us into whom God intends us to be.

umc.org/site/pp.aspx?c=lwL4KnN1LtH&b=2310047

 

[BrianH]

Dittos to what Inkaneer said. If he doesn’t have an understanding of most Protestant thought on the topic, than neither do most Protestants I’ve come across. Which version of sola fide is the dogma du jour? The disconnect is not between Martignoni and the “real” Protestant thought on the matter, the disconnect is between Protestants and the “real” Protestant thought on the matter.

By the way, I noticed you didn’t answer the question. Can a man’s faith alone save him?

But you have to admit he is hard to follow. Not exactly the most articulate guy on the web.
But I agree the delivery should not get in the way of the content discussion.
And when you say “most” Protestants, does that mean evangelicals or what REALLY is “most” Protestants? The majority of Protestants worldwide are Anglican, Methodist, and Lutheran and its a little more complex than that…

 

[jmcrae]

But you have to admit he is hard to follow. Not exactly the most articulate guy on the web.

I was worried that it was just me. I get his e-letters, and it seems to me that he manages to put a three-word answer into about nine and a half paragraphs. Has anyone ever read to the end of one of those things? (Or am I the only one who gives up about half way through? )

 

[marty30]

James was definitely not protestant. It seems that we Catholics believe what James and the other apostles believed, That faith without works is dead. Its still faith, but has no life- in the same way a body that is dead is still a body. Scripture speaks for itself.

John Martignoni is a great man of God and does amazing work. I praise God for men like him. Shame on those who would attack him for not being articulate enough. It is kind of funny though. Wasn’t St. Paul attacked for not being articulate enough- elequent enough.

James 2
1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ of glory with respect of persons.
2 For if there shall come into your assembly a man having a golden ring, in fine apparel, and there shall come in also a poor man in mean attire,
3 And you have respect to him that is clothed with the fine apparel, and shall say to him: Sit thou here well; but say to the poor man: Stand thou there, or sit under my footstool:
4 Do you not judge within yourselves, and are become judges of unjust thoughts?
5 Hearken, my dearest brethren: hath not God chosen the poor in this world, rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which God hath promised to them that love him?
6 But you have dishonoured the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you by might? and do not they draw you before the judgment seats?
7 Do not they blaspheme the good name that is invoked upon you?
8 If then you fulfill the royal law, according to the scriptures, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself; you do well.
9 But if you have respect to persons, you commit sin, being reproved by the law as transgressors.
10 And whosoever shall keep the whole law, but offend in one point, is become guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Thou shalt not commit adultery, said also, Thou shalt not kill. Now if thou do not commit adultery, but shalt kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak ye, and so do, as being to be judged by the law of liberty.
13 For judgment without mercy to him that hath not done mercy. And mercy exalteth itself above judgment.
** 14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?**
15 And if a brother or sister be naked, and want daily food:
16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit?
17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.
18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.
19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?
**22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? **
23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. Scripture & Tradition » Deuterocanonicals
**24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? **
25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way?
26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.

 

[rben20]

John Martignoni is a great man of God and does amazing work. I praise God for men like him. Shame on those who would attack him for not being articulate enough. It is kind of funny though. Wasn’t St. Paul attacked for not being articulate enough- elequent enough.

So true. John is who got me into apologetics!

 

[Lutheranteach]

I don’t consider it a moving target at all:

A) Salvation is via faith alone
B) Faith without works is dead…yes, because one with faith will, without a doubt, do good works
C) One cannot do good works without faith. One can do beneficial works, but they are not by definition “good.”
D) In an extreme example, let’s say someone with the most extreme for of paralysis “locked in syndrome” is in a hospital bed. Is this person penalized by God for not being able to go out and do good works? I think not. What saves this person. Faith alone.

 

[BrianH]

James was definitely not protestant. It seems that we Catholics believe what James and the other apostles believed, That faith without works is dead. Its still faith, but has no life- in the same way a body that is dead is still a body. Scripture speaks for itself.

John Martignoni is a great man of God and does amazing work. I praise God for men like him. Shame on those who would attack him for not being articulate enough. It is kind of funny though. Wasn’t St. Paul attacked for not being articulate enough- elequent enough.

.

LOL
What is there some kind of personality cult around this guy? I have read St. Paul, uh this guy isnt a St. Paul
I am not attacking him. I just think he rambles. Its my opinion. Heck some people think Bob Dylan is easy to understand too…I am sure he is a great man. Someone pass the Kool Aid

 

[marty30]

LOL
What is there some kind of personality cult around this guy? I have read St. Paul, uh this guy isnt a St. Paul
I am not attacking him. I just think he rambles. Its my opinion. Heck some people think Bob Dylan is easy to understand too…I am sure he is a great man. Someone pass the Kool Aid

No kool aid around here. Just looking for a straight answer to a straight question.

If a man says he has faith, but has not works, can his faith save him?

 

[marty30]

So, salvation is by faith and works? He says that is what Catholics believe. Which I thought was not exactly it…

That’s what the bible says. James 2.

 

[marty30]

I don’t consider it a moving target at all:

A) Salvation is via faith alone
B) Faith without works is dead…yes, because one with faith will, without a doubt, do good works
C) One cannot do good works without faith. One can do beneficial works, but they are not by definition “good.”
D) In an extreme example, let’s say someone with the most extreme for of paralysis “locked in syndrome” is in a hospital bed. Is this person penalized by God for not being able to go out and do good works? I think not. What saves this person. Faith alone.

So you disagree with James?

 

[jmcrae]

So you disagree with James?

LT has just given you a synopsis of the Catholic teaching on the matter.

Not even James himself expected those who could not work to do any works - he was, after all, the same one who said, “Call the priest,” in their case.

 

[BrianH]

I am not sure what exactly we believe differently than you guys on this. I posted a link to the Methodist website on sanctification and someone smarter than I will point out how it is different.
gbgm-umc.org/interrelig/justificationworld_methodist_council_and_the_jddj.pdf