#2 Questions Protestants Can't Answer

[marty30]

Inkaneer, thanks for correcting my not being clear. As I said in my last post I believe what the church teaches. We are saved by God’s Grace alone. However like I said in my last post we must except God’s grace through faith and works. Does that clarify what I meant?

 

[marty30]

Correct, you say I don’t know Jesus on the basis of a couple of posts.

If, say, I joined this forum to find out whether the Catholic faith is for me, you haven’t exactly helped with your size twelve boots. Your motives may be good, but then you didn’t answer my question yet - who are you to judge me?

I wasn’t judging you, just responding to your post. Forgive me if I come off too blunt. I will put it to prayer and consideration.

 

[inocente]

I wasn’t judging you, just responding to your post. Forgive me if I come off too blunt. I will put it to prayer and consideration.

Thanks, you gained a lot of points with me for that. Forgiven and forgotten.

 

[inocente]

You said you can’t help yourself from feeling compassion?

I never really answered your question.

I was raised without religion, at home or school, but I remember teacher telling us some parables as moral tales. The Good Samaritan was pretty much a no-brainer, we already knew the right thing to do without teacher having to provide a supporting framework of logic. I could rationalise it as an adult, but it would only be post-rationalising.

Looking at Luke 10:25-37 as an adult, Jesus only asks questions. The hated law expert provides all the answers, and darned tooting answers they are. How did the law expert reach his first answer about love? Why choose lonely Lev 19:18 as part of his snappy summary of the whole of the law? We can’t repeat the experiment, because we already know the answer, but I think he must have synthesized the whole of scripture rather than deconstructing it.

What interests me is the tension between what we know in our hearts and what I see as over-thinking it in some Catholics. Admittedly, all my Catholic friends (this is Spain) wear their faith lightly, and this is a debating forum after all. But still… haven’t reached a conclusion yet.

 

[marty30]

I wasn’t judging you, just responding to your post. Forgive me if I come off too blunt. I will put it to prayer and consideration.

I never really answered your question.

I was raised without religion, at home or school, but I remember teacher telling us some parables as moral tales. The Good Samaritan was pretty much a no-brainer, we already knew the right thing to do without teacher having to provide a supporting framework of logic. I could rationalise it as an adult, but it would only be post-rationalising.

Looking at Luke 10:25-37 as an adult, Jesus only asks questions. The hated law expert provides all the answers, and earned tooting answers they are. How did the law expert reach his first answer about love? Why choose lonely Lev 19:18 as part of his snappy summary of the whole of the law? We can’t repeat the experiment, because we already know the answer, but I think he must have synthesized the whole of scripture rather than deconstructing it.

What interests me is the tension between what we know in our hearts and what I see as over-thinking it in some Catholics. Admittedly, all my Catholic friends (this is Spain) wear their faith lightly, and this is a debating forum after all. But still… haven’t reached a conclusion yet.

Would you elaborate on the last par. First sentence? The tension in our hearts and catholics over thinking it?

 

[inocente]

Would you elaborate on the last par. First sentence? The tension in our hearts and catholics over thinking it?

It was tension between not in just in case you misread it.

Hmm. Well, for one you have that long list of sins. Understandable in a large Church, civil codes also need to define common standards, but a side-effect is the scrupulosity and such that I see on some of the moral threads. (Never saw the word scrupulosity until I joined the forum). E.g. someone repeatedly got told in no uncertain terms to sin no more until I waded in, and then thankfully some Catholics joined me, to point out that it was obviously a medical problem, nothing like a sin. So I wonder were the earlier posters’ hearts were.

More generally, there does seem to be a desire to rationalize everything that I haven’t found in Protestants, which is what I was getting at in the previous post. But as I said, I don’t see that in Catholic friends either, so it may just be that the forum attracts a certain kind of soul.

I guess I’d be more at the Taizé end of the Church. Go to taize.fr/es_article4803.html and join me in praying to the chants Jesus Remember Me and Nada Te Turbe (the others are good too). In case you don’t know it:

Nada te turbe / Nada te espante / Todo se pasa / Dios no se muda
(Let nothing upset thee / Do not be frightened / Everything passes / God never changes)

Santa Teresa de Ávila (my translation)

Be interested in your comments back.

As for the first quote in your last post, stop over-thinking it , let it be, it’s as far as the east is from west.

 

[marty30]

It was tension between not in just in case you misread it.

Hmm. Well, for one you have that long list of sins. Understandable in a large Church, civil codes also need to define common standards, but a side-effect is the scrupulosity and such that I see on some of the moral threads. (Never saw the word scrupulosity until I joined the forum). E.g. someone repeatedly got told in no uncertain terms to sin no more until I waded in, and then thankfully some Catholics joined me, to point out that it was obviously a medical problem, nothing like a sin. So I wonder were the earlier posters’ hearts were.

More generally, there does seem to be a desire to rationalize everything that I haven’t found in Protestants, which is what I was getting at in the previous post. But as I said, I don’t see that in Catholic friends either, so it may just be that the forum attracts a certain kind of soul.

I guess I’d be more at the Taizé end of the Church. Go to taize.fr/es_article4803.html and join me in praying to the chants Jesus Remember Me and Nada Te Turbe (the others are good too). In case you don’t know it:

Be interested in your comments back.

As for the first quote in your last post, stop over-thinking it , let it be, it’s as far as the east is from west.

My understanding if the Church, according to scriptures, is that Jesus established one visible Church. He put in the hands of sinners and told them not to worry, the gates of hell would not prevail. He said He would give us the Holy Spirit to guide us. For two thousand years the Catholic Church has done what Christ said, inspire of our sins. You say there is a long list of sinners. There is also a long list of saints in the Catholic Church that through the power of God they have performed some pretty amazing miracles. Some of their bodies are incorrupted. There is nothing the Catholic Church teaches that is contrary to scripture. Trust me I’ve been searching. Yes we Catholics to fall short of perfection, yes we do sin and yes sometimes we do rationalize. However we believe and rightly so that we belong to the Church Jesus established and promised to protect. There are many doctrines of faith that the church has always upheld and proclaimed since the life death and resurection of Christ that the Protestants rationalized that we the Church was wrong.ie the Eucharist.

 

[marty30]

My understanding if the Church, according to scriptures, is that Jesus established one visible Church. He put in the hands of sinners and told them not to worry, the gates of hell would not prevail. He said He would give us the Holy Spirit to guide us. For two thousand years the Catholic Church has done what Christ said, inspire of our sins. You say there is a long list of sinners. There is also a long list of saints in the Catholic Church that through the power of God they have performed some pretty amazing miracles. Some of their bodies are incorrupted. There is nothing the Catholic Church teaches that is contrary to scripture. Trust me I’ve been searching. Yes we Catholics to fall short of perfection, yes we do sin and yes sometimes we do rationalize. However we believe and rightly so that we belong to the Church Jesus established and promised to protect. There are many doctrines of faith that the church has always upheld and proclaimed since the life death and resurection of Christ that the Protestants rationalized that we the Church was wrong.ie the Eucharist.

Forgive me for miss spelling some.

 

[inocente]

You say there is a long list of sinners.

I think you misread me, Lord knows we’re all sinners. It was that long list defining sins that I was on about.

I’d never say you are wrong about the Eucharist, we both find great meaning in Communion. We may differ on what to me are details, but I wouldn’t want to debate it. Pretty big on Romans 14 - we are both right as long as we act in conscience.

 

[jmcrae]

I think you misread me, Lord knows we’re all sinners. It was that long list defining sins that I was on about.

What “long list” would that be? The five disciplines of the Church? The ten Commandments? (Which came from God, by the way. We didn’t “invent” them.)

Those don’t seem “long”, to me.

The commentaries are long, but then, that is the nature of commentaries.

 

[inocente]

What “long list” would that be?

That was a poser, it got quoted a lot on some threads about abortion that I had to go off and find.

Turns out it’s the Code of Cannon Law. Sorry for calling it a list of sins but that’s how it came over at the time. As I said, the need for common standards is completely understandable in a large Church. It’s just that we don’t have them (or if we do they are roundly ignored).

I’ve never heard of a Baptist suffering from anything close to scrupulosity (“pathological guilt about moral or religious issues” - never knew the word) but maybe I just lead a sheltered life. My three best friends growing up went to a Catholic-only school, and were constantly reminded that they were sinners. When they left, they all renounced the faith in no uncertain terms and are now staunch atheists. OK, that must have been desperately poor schooling and my current Catholic friends are far from being scrupulous eek: ?) but it leaves a residual.

Now shimmy on over to the Catechism, or at least the parts I’ve read, and that’s much more my cup of coffee.

Spain won the World Cup last night :extrahappy: and I’m suffering a little from the attending fiesta, but does that explain it?

 

[jmcrae]

That was a poser, it got quoted a lot on some threads about abortion that I had to go off and find.

Turns out it’s the Code of Cannon Law. Sorry for calling it a list of sins but that’s how it came over at the time.

That’s “canon” - not “cannon”. Huge difference.

Canon Law spells out the disciplines of the Church, and shows how they apply to the modern world today. An everyday Catholic who is living a morally sound life doesn’t need to know most of it. It’s only when people get themselves into trouble that the canon law comes into play. Its purpose is not to condemn people, but to show them the series of steps to get out of whatever predicament they have gotten themselves into.

I liken it to someone who has fallen into a deep pit, without any light. The canon law guides them to be able to safely climb the wall to get back out into the light again, without falling back down even deeper into the pit. If you’ve ever tried to imagine yourself climbing up the wall of a pit in the dark, you can probably see how it might seem more complicated than it would be if it were done in the full light of day.

The person being led out of the pit might spend the whole time complaining that the instructions make no sense - put your left foot here, and put your right foot there, and put your left hand there, and your right hand there - he might ask, what am I doing - dancing, or climbing? But as long as he follows all of the directions in order, he will climb out into the light of day, and only then will he understand what each of the instructions really meant.

But if he refuses to follow the instructions because they don’t make any sense to him, he will have to convince himself to like living in a dark pit, because that’s where he’s going to end up. Some people do that, too.

 

[yesukristus]

Just a general comment, which I hope is not too much off topic.

I am a Christian who isn’t into denominationalism, or even dogmatic theology for that matter. My heritage is both Catholic (paternal line) and Protestant (maternal). My view of the religious world, certainly among people I know, is very different from what I usually read here on CAF.

It's my experience that most of my Catholic and Protestant friends don't care all that much about the finer points of theology. They look to their faith for strength to face the daily challenges of life. They often view their church as an extended family, where they have friends and feel comfortable, a home away from home. They believe in a real but generalized way. God. Jesus. Morality. Hope, Faith, Love. Maybe most of them don't know all that much about the distinctive dogmae of their particular churches - and they don't particularly care. 

 When it comes to, say, the Immaculate Conception, many Catholics (and Protestants, too, of course) confuse it with the Virgin Birth. (Many in both groups even have doubts about the Virgin Birth.) Transubstantiation? Most Catholics I know don't accept it as some sort of re-creation of the crucifixion. Representation, yes, but they do not believe that words by a priest actually propel a substantive change in the bread and wine. As for Protestants, they generally view both faith and works as important - just that Luther and Calvin rebelled against the popular medieval notion that certain prayers or other rituals stacked up 'brownie points' that got the believer closer to heaven. Etc.  

  There are hardcore Christians who make a lot out of the finer points of doctrine, but they are a small minority - fortunately. I just finished a book on the ancient church councils and all the competing factions, all the dirty politics involved, and what a mess. 

  Frankly, when I consider this vast universe, with maybe a billion stars - or even a billion solar system - most theological disputes, whether about predestination or the Assumption of the Virgin Mary, seem trivial. We live in such a marvelous, mammoth, majestic, miraculous and mysterious world that I am in constant awe, but also ready to confess both a deep skepticism about the details of theology and a deep and abiding faith in our amazing Creator God. I understand God through the example, teachings, and sacrifice of Christ, but am not sure that I am more favored in the eyes of the Almighty than faithful and compassionate Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus and those of other faiths.

   Some years ago it was my privilege to spend awhile with an inspiring  Hindu family in India. I decided then that if God doesn't find a place in heaven for them - well, my chances are pretty slim. 

   Let's make religion a bridge and not a barrier.

I get where ur coming from. U see all the wrangling about this or that point of theology and you ask “What for? Let’s focus on the love and not the law… after all, isn’t that what Jesus taught?” It’s not so much that we are not focusing on the love. After all if we just sit around arguing about this or that and not loving and serving we are no better than the hypocrites. It’s just that we are arguing about things that are not so clear… and loving others is SO clear that even a kindy kid will understand it. The things we argue about will hopefully point out how to love God and others better in our different walks of life.
And about the teachings of the Church… the reason they are dogma is so that people will not waste time arguing about it. After all there are so many things to talk and think about; why waste time with things that have been infallibly defined as 100% true?

 

[yesukristus]

I’ve never heard of a Baptist suffering from anything close to scrupulosity (“pathological guilt about moral or religious issues” - never knew the word) but maybe I just lead a sheltered life. My three best friends growing up went to a Catholic-only school, and were constantly reminded that they were sinners. When they left, they all renounced the faith in no uncertain terms and are now staunch atheists. OK, that must have been desperately poor schooling and my current Catholic friends are far from being scrupulous eek: ?) but it leaves a residual.

I guess it’s because ppl misunderstand the meaning of the phrase “we’re all sinners”. And I include catechists and figures of authority in the ppl mentioned above.
The phrase is not meant to condemn ppl but to remind them that they need God. A lot of ppl understand it to mean that they are guilty until proven innocent (so to speak). This understandably creates an atmosphere of suspicion and ill-feeling- which any thinking human being should reject outright. But if they understand that the phrase means that they are imperfect people living among other imperfect people in an imperfect world, and only with God’s help can they do something about it, and since they are all uniquely created by Him God therefore helps them in unique ways, then IMHO no one would renounce the Christian faith.

 

[Brywan]

**I’ve never heard of a Baptist suffering from anything close to scrupulosity (“pathological guilt about moral or religious issues” - never knew the word) but maybe I just lead a sheltered life. **

Scrupulosity is a form of obsessive-compulsive disorder that works itself out within the framework of religion. People of all religious stripes suffer from “scrupulosity”–it is NOT a Catholic disorder–

I was an evangelical Protestant before I converted to Catholicism at age 44–I was definitely scrupulous before becoming Catholic–but had never really heard the word within Protestant circles—

Becoming Catholic helped me to face this disorder within my spiritual experience and to find some measure of peace. But that’s another story…

 

[neophyte]

How is that different than Wesley’s view of Sanctification?

umc.org/site/pp.aspx?c=lwL4KnN1LtH&b=2310047

Obviously the Joint Declaration describes a point on which the teachings of some non-Catholic denominations appear to agree with the teaching of the Catholic Church. But Lutheran and Methodist theology can hardly be said to be representative of all other non-Catholic denominations even on the narrow points discussed in the Declaration.

 

[inocente]

jmcrae, yesukristus and Brywan:

Benedict is one of my favorite theologians and I’ve just made a first read-through of his latest chart topper Verbum Domini. He makes his usual point that scripture is alive and must be interpreted holistically, for example:

*With this Apostolic Exhortation I would like the work of the Synod to have a real effect on the life of the Church: on our personal relationship with the sacred Scriptures, on their interpretation in the liturgy and catechesis, and in scientific research, so that the Bible may not be simply a word from the past, but a living and timely word.

… The Bride of Christ – the great teacher of the art of listening – today too repeats in faith: “Speak, Lord, your Church is listening”. … The Church draws life not from herself but from the Gospel, and from the Gospel she discovers ever anew the direction for her journey.

… In stressing faith’s intrinsic summons to an ever deeper relationship with Christ, the word of God in our midst, the Synod also emphasized that this word calls each one of us personally, revealing that life itself is a vocation from God.*

That’s a nice phrase “life itself is a vocation from God” . It’s a long document and will take some reflection, but on first reading I take it as containing a rallying call for a deeper faith that the living God is for us (all of us) rather than being a hand-me-down litany of do and don’t clauses.

We seem to be in violent agreement, at least on this, and I guess people who would use the Bible as a set of apocalyptic equations (like the youtube guy in the OP) may now have to change their tune.

PS: jmcrae, until the thread was resurrected I never realized I didn’t reply to your last post.