2 questions

[TomD123]

1. Recently, I was talking to someone about Catholic beliefs and the topic of doing pennance came up. I said that it was traditional Catholic belief that by making sacrafices and offering them up, we could help save souls. (As I understand it, this is what Our Lady of Fatima wanted us to do and many saints in history did things like wear hair-shirts). I gave examples like sleeping with one less blanket or taking a longer walking path in the cold or sitting on a harder bench. This person I was talking too said that he agreed that some sacrifices were good like if we were to do something charitable for someone else, and of course I agree, but he disagreed and said that things like sitting on a harder bench or allowing yourself some suffering is not useful if it does not involve actually giving something to someone else. So my question is, does the Church teach that we are to do acts of pennance only if they are connected to coorperal works of mercy (or similar acts) or should we also give licit pleasures up such as giving up TV for a week or something and offering it up for the conversion of sinnners?
2. This is an unrelated question but with purgatory, what would happen if a soul was baptized and died right away yet they still were attatched to sin? Their temporal punishment would have been taken away due to the baptism but how could that person, who is not perfectly holy, stand in the presence of God?

Thanks for the answers, I put this in the Traditional Catholic section because I didn’t really know where to put it but I thought I would get some good answers, so thanks

Tom

 

[laszlo]

1./ Jesus’ passion and death did not gave anything charitable to the world. He wanted us to follow his path, and sharing in that widens the channels of the grace.

2./ This is theological opinion, but with high probability the baptism does not deletes the attachment to the sin; so it is necessary to be cleaned up in the purgatory.

1. Recently, I was talking to someone about Catholic beliefs and the topic of doing pennance came up. I said that it was traditional Catholic belief that by making sacrafices and offering them up, we could help save souls. (As I understand it, this is what Our Lady of Fatima wanted us to do and many saints in history did things like wear hair-shirts). I gave examples like sleeping with one less blanket or taking a longer walking path in the cold or sitting on a harder bench. This person I was talking too said that he agreed that some sacrifices were good like if we were to do something charitable for someone else, and of course I agree, but he disagreed and said that things like sitting on a harder bench or allowing yourself some suffering is not useful if it does not involve actually giving something to someone else. So my question is, does the Church teach that we are to do acts of pennance only if they are connected to coorperal works of mercy (or similar acts) or should we also give licit pleasures up such as giving up TV for a week or something and offering it up for the conversion of sinnners?
2. This is an unrelated question but with purgatory, what would happen if a soul was baptized and died right away yet they still were attatched to sin? Their temporal punishment would have been taken away due to the baptism but how could that person, who is not perfectly holy, stand in the presence of God?

Thanks for the answers, I put this in the Traditional Catholic section because I didn’t really know where to put it but I thought I would get some good answers, so thanks

Tom

 

[PatrickSebast]

1./ Jesus’ passion and death did not gave anything charitable to the world. He wanted us to follow his path, and sharing in that widens the channels of the grace.

2./ This is theological opinion, but with high probability the baptism does not deletes the attachment to the sin; so it is necessary to be cleaned up in the purgatory.

Uh…Jesus’ passion and death gave a lot to the world.

Anyway I think the problem in your(OP’s) communications with this person was your choice of odd examples. Certainly those COULD be examples of a penance, but sitting on a harder bench gives the image of someone slumping down in a bitter protest of comfort, not offering up a sacrifice to God for the development of spiritual fortitude and the lessening of burdens on those in purgatory. Sure it may apply well to a certain individual, but those particular acts are something a person would find it hard to relate to. Now if you had used examples like fasting, or taking a longer path expressly for the purpose of prayer then I doubt there would have been much conflict. Without the intent being clear sacrifices often seem like the actions of foolish men.

 

[JM3]

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P4G.HTM

1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the “old man” and to put on the "new man."84

1478 An indulgence is obtained through the Church who, by virtue of the power of binding and loosing granted her by Christ Jesus, intervenes in favor of individual Christians and opens for them the treasury of the merits of Christ and the saints to obtain from the Father of mercies the remission of the temporal punishments due for their sins. Thus the Church does not want simply to come to the aid of these Christians, but also to spur them to works of devotion, penance, and charity.89

1479 Since the faithful departed now being purified are also members of the same communion of saints, one way we can help them is to obtain indulgences for them, so that the temporal punishments due for their sins may be remitted.

vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-vi_apc_19660217_paenitemini_en.html

Penance therefore—already in the Old Testament—is a religious, personal act which has as its aim love and surrender to God: fasting for the sake of God, not for one’s own self.(23) Such it must remain also in the various penitential rites sanctioned by law. When this is not verified, the Lord is displeased with His people: “Today you have not fasted in a way which will make your voice heard on high… Rend your heart and not your garments, and return to the Lord your God.”(24)

 

[valentino]

In offering up penances we can take part in Christ’s offering His sufferings for the sins of mankind.Therefore it doesn’t need to be temporal acts.No.2) no answer

 

[Carlan]

1./ Jesus’ passion and death did not gave anything charitable to the world. He wanted us to follow his path, and sharing in that widens the channels of the grace.

2./ This is theological opinion, but with high probability the baptism does not deletes the attachment to the sin; so it is necessary to be cleaned up in the purgatory.

Peace, Carlan

 

[SouthpawLink]

TomD123:

So my question is, does the Church teach that we are to do acts of pennance only if they are connected to coorperal works of mercy (or similar acts) or should we also give licit pleasures up such as giving up TV for a week or something and offering it up for the conversion of sinnners?

The New St. Joseph Baltimore Catechism, No. 2 teaches:

“Sufferings and sacrifices not only help to cure our own soul of the inclination to do wrong, but also to help to save the souls of others” (p. 159).

And then there’s the teaching of Scripture:

“whereof I Paul am made a minister. Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for His body, which is the church” (Colossians 1:23-24).

See also: fisheaters.com/offeringitup.html

“We are called to offer ourselves up to the Father and for others, too.”

TomD123:

What would happen if a soul was baptized and died right away yet they still were attatched to sin?

I think baptism would take away that attachment to sin:

“Baptism takes away original sin; and also actual sin and all the punishment due to them, if the person baptized be guilty of any actual sins and truly sorry for them” (New St. Joseph Baltimore Catechism, No. 2, q. 316).

 

[TomD123]

So as I understand it, I was correct in saying that acts of voluntary pennance and sacrifices can save souls? Since this is the case, why is it never talked about and is there any reference to this in the CCC? Also, was this what was meant by “that the salvation of many depends on the prayers and voluntary penances which the members of the Mystical Body offer for that intention” (Mystical Corpus).

and as for the Baptism question, I think my question comes is centered around an understanding of purgatory: I have seen purgatory described in 2 ways:

1. purification- this makes sense but then how does baptism take away all of our purgatory time, and how does the mass/our prayers help the souls in purgatory, and how do indulgences work?
2. punishment- This seems to be a more traditional view of purgatory in that it is a punishment place for sin, but then does it also serve to purify in any way because certainly after death we are not ready to be in the presence of God even if we are in the state of grace?

 

[SouthpawLink]

So as I understand it, I was correct in saying that acts of voluntary pennance and sacrifices can save souls? Since this is the case, why is it never talked about and is there any reference to this in the CCC? Also, was this what was meant by “that the salvation of many depends on the prayers and voluntary penances which the members of the Mystical Body offer for that intention” (Mystical Corpus).

and as for the Baptism question, I think my question comes is centered around an understanding of purgatory: I have seen purgatory described in 2 ways:

1. purification- this makes sense but then how does baptism take away all of our purgatory time, and how does the mass/our prayers help the souls in purgatory, and how do indulgences work?
2. punishment- This seems to be a more traditional view of purgatory in that it is a punishment place for sin, but then does it also serve to purify in any way because certainly after death we are not ready to be in the presence of God even if we are in the state of grace?

I think paragraph 1475 might be hinting at suffering for others: “In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others.” Maybe it is there more explicitly in another place, but I cannot find it right now.

Yes, I think you have the right understanding of Mystici Corporis Christi. At Fatima, Our Lady said, “Many souls are going to hell because there is no one to offer prayer and sacrifice for them.”

That the punishment due to sin is taken away in Baptism is indicated by St. Paul: “Know you not that all we, who are baptized in Christ Jesus, are baptized in his death? For we are buried together with him by baptism into death; that as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also may walk in newness of life” (Rom. 6:3-4). We’re given a clean slate, so to speak, when we are baptized, so that there is neither guilt nor punishment of sins remaining.

Indulgences… Well, there is a spiritual treasury of merit held by Jesus and the saints in Heaven which the Church can apply to her members living on earth. This is possible through the Communion of Saints and the power of the keys. The new Catechism explains:

“An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints” (n. 1471).

It is a sharing of spiritual goods among the Body of Christ, the sharing of the goods from the Church Triumphant (in Heaven), and applied or used by the Church Suffering (those in Purgatory) and the Church Militant (those on earth). Read here for the full explanation: scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c2a4.htm#X

Yes, Purgatory includes both punishment for sin (not fully remitted on earth) and purification so that the soul may be holy enough to enter into the presence of God in Heaven (cf. Revised Baltimore Catechism, No. 2, q. 184; CCC, n. 1030).

God bless!