2 things I need help with

[Ilovejesus1234]

1. So it says in the bible, or at least it is very unclear, that everyone is indeed in heaven right now. Can you guys explain to me verses that show people are not in a temporary pause(those who died are not in heaven yet) until the coming of the Lord. Please explain them all to me, with the Nabre version if possible. It is unclear on when Paul spoke about those who have fallen asleep and stuff(what does that mean, “fallen asleep”). Anyways help me. The cathecism says that we go to heaven after we die, but please explain to me why with various verses.
2. I am amazed that you are so quickly forsaking the one who called you[f] by [the] grace [of Christ] for a different gospel 7 (not that there is another). But there are some who are disturbing you and wish to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach [to you] a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed![g] 9 As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed! 10 Am I now currying favor with human beings or God? Or am I seeking to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a slave of Christ.[h]

This verse notes this, other denominations use this to combat against catholics sometimes, saying that with our tradition it is untrue. Can you guys explain to me why it would not be untrue, why this verse does NOT support their claims, help me. Thank you!

 

[St_Francis]

1. So it says in the bible, or at least it is very unclear, that everyone is indeed in heaven right now.

No, it does not say in the Bible that everyone is in Heaven, or even will go to Heaven. In fact, it is very clearly stated by Christ Himself that “many” take the wide road to perdition (Hell).

Can you guys explain to me verses that show people are not in a temporary pause(those who died are not in heaven yet) until the coming of the Lord.

The Bible was not written as a textbook or catechism, nor does it itself contain all the truths which Christ taught–note that little is said of the 40 days after Christ’s resurrection and what He taught them during that time.

Because Christ had not yet opened the gates of Heaven by His death on the cross, those who had not merited Hell were still unable to enter Heaven. Thus we see in St Luke, 16:22, that the beggar, who had not merited Hell, was in “the Bosom of Abraham.” This is therefore the name we use for that place.

Please explain them all to me, with the Nabre version if possible. It is unclear on when Paul spoke about those who have fallen asleep and stuff(what does that mean, “fallen asleep”).

Fallen asleep was the phrase used for those who had died. It is not used all that much in the Western Church, but is used not infrequently in the Eastern Churches.

Anyways help me. The cathecism says that we go to heaven after we die, but please explain to me why with various verses.

The CCC does not say that. Some go to Heaven, others to Purgatory, and the others to Hell.

1. I am amazed that you are so quickly forsaking the one who called you[f] by [the] grace [of Christ] for a different gospel 7 (not that there is another). But there are some who are disturbing you and wish to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach [to you] a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed![g] 9 As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed! 10 Am I now currying favor with human beings or God? Or am I seeking to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a slave of Christ.[h]

This verse notes this, other denominations use this to combat against catholics sometimes, saying that with our tradition it is untrue. Can you guys explain to me why it would not be untrue, why this verse does NOT support their claims, help me. Thank you!

Ths verse can only work against the Catholic Church for those who completely ignore the fact that early Christians believed the same as the Catholic Church now teaches.

Among certain Protestant denominations has arisen the idea that the Catholic Church changed certain teachings and that they themselves have discovered the truth. There is no evidence that the Church changed anything, nor do they have a leg to stand on wrt Sola Scriptura.

Always ask them for evidence of their assertion becore attempting to refute it, altho actually I have found that they exemplify the saying: There are none so blind as those who *will *not see.

 

[Mintaka]

Here’s a Catholic Answers article about this. Here’s another one that covers different facets. They’re a a lot better written than anything I have below! As you will see from the articles, most groups who believe in this call it “soul sleep,” so that’s the apologetics search term for you to use.

Re: “fallen asleep” = your body is dead –

Obviously, we get this from Jesus’ way of talking, which was a Jewish way of talking. Remember, He said that the little girl who died had “fallen asleep,” and He made her rise from the dead by saying, “Little girl, get up/wake up.” So Christians have always talked about the dead this way. “The saints who had fallen asleep.” We English-speakers bury the dead in “cemeteries.”

The word “cemetery” comes from French cimetiere,
which comes from Late Latin coemeterium,
which comes from Greek koimeterion “sleeping place, dormitory.”

Now, that said, from the earliest times, Christians were also absolutely sure that the souls of the dead were not asleep, but alive and well and conscious in Christ (if good and repentant) or in Hell with the demons (if unrepentant).

Revelation 6:9-10 talks about the souls of the martyrs waiting under God’s altar (in one of the holiest places in Heaven), and calling on God to avenge their deaths (as was their right under Jewish law, since He is their brother).

The whole point of Christian belief in the martyrs was that you asked for their prayers, because you knew they were in favor with God and by His side. Their prayers were efficacious before they died heroically, but they were even more powerful after they had died a righteous death.

So actually, it was very common for early Christians who were troubled to go see condemned martyrs in prison, ask for them to pray for them, and then report miraculous fulfillment of their requests immediately after the martyrs’ deaths. If the martyrs were supposed to be in some kind of dream state in Heaven where they couldn’t help, how would these reports make sense to anyone?

Similarly, the whole idea of venerating the tombs and relics of the martyrs, and asking for their intercession with God, would make no sense if the saints were unable to pray for us.

The Jews in Jesus’ time believed that they could ask the Patriarchs and Matriarchs to pray to God for them. That’s why people still visit Rachel’s tomb, for instance. Jews, Christians, and even Muslims believe that Rachel will pray for them and for their children, not that she is unconscious until the Resurrection.

 

[GEddie]

“Sleep” is often used classically as a comforting metaphor for human death because a dead human body, initially, looks very much like a sleeping body. Sleep is not something to be afraid of, so the use of that metaphor is intended to allay the fear surrounding death.

Our LORD used this metaphor one step further. For Him, not only was death not fearsome, but it was not even final, for just as in sleep, He could bring a human being out of it.

The usage has survived in Christendom.

However, sleep is a body function; only bodies sleep. “Soul sleep” as a state of unconsciousness after death is not Church teaching, and was not the teaching of any part of Christianity until after the Reformation.

ICXC NIKA

 

[thistle]

1. So it says in the bible, or at least it is very unclear, that everyone is indeed in heaven right now. Can you guys explain to me verses that show people are not in a temporary pause(those who died are not in heaven yet) until the coming of the Lord. Please explain them all to me, with the Nabre version if possible. It is unclear on when Paul spoke about those who have fallen asleep and stuff(what does that mean, “fallen asleep”). Anyways help me. The cathecism says that we go to heaven after we die, but please explain to me why with various verses.

1. I am amazed that you are so quickly forsaking the one who called you[f] by [the] grace [of Christ] for a different gospel 7 (not that there is another). But there are some who are disturbing you and wish to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach [to you] a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed![g] 9 As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed! 10 Am I now currying favor with human beings or God? Or am I seeking to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a slave of Christ.[h]

This verse notes this, other denominations use this to combat against catholics sometimes, saying that with our tradition it is untrue. Can you guys explain to me why it would not be untrue, why this verse does NOT support their claims, help me. Thank you!

You first sentence is totally incorrect. Where on earth did you get this idea from?

 

[ajcstr]

This may be a bizzare way to look at it but I wonder if when we die, our souls are no longer bound by time so our judgment IS at the final judgement. Is that too out there??

 

[ajcstr]

You first sentence is totally incorrect. Where on earth did you get this idea from?

I think the OP means everyone who has passed and will be in heaven is there now, not in “suspended animation” or “soul sleep” something like that. Don’t think they meant to make a statement that all souls go to heaven.

This may be a bizzare way to look at it but I wonder if when we die, our souls are no longer bound by time so our judgment IS at the final judgement. Is that too out there??

 

[GEddie]

I think the OP means everyone who has passed and will be in heaven is there now, not in “suspended animation” or “soul sleep” something like that. Don’t think they meant to make a statement that all souls go to heaven.

This may be a bizzare way to look at it but I wonder if when we die, our souls are no longer bound by time so our judgment IS at the final judgement. Is that too out there??

Sounds alright to me.

Time as we know it is an attribute of material being, ie the material of our natural bodies.

The human spiritual body will be eternal. Eternity is not nonending collinear time.

ICXC NIKA!

 

[thistle]

I think the OP means everyone who has passed and will be in heaven is there now, not in “suspended animation” or “soul sleep” something like that. Don’t think they meant to make a statement that all souls go to heaven.

This may be a bizzare way to look at it but I wonder if when we die, our souls are no longer bound by time so our judgment IS at the final judgement. Is that too out there??

When we die the state of our soul at death determines if we are saved or not.
If we die in a state of mortal sin we go immediately to Hell. If we die in a state of grace we are immediately saved, either to Purgatory first or straight to Heaven. At our death is the Particular Judgement and that does not change at the Final Judgement.
If I understand what you are saying it would mean or imply that Purgatory is empty and that is definitely NOT a Church teaching.

 

[ajcstr]

When we die the state of our soul at death determines if we are saved or not.
If we die in a state of mortal sin we go immediately to Hell. If we die in a state of grace we are immediately saved, either to Purgatory first or straight to Heaven. At our death is the Particular Judgement and that does not change at the Final Judgement.
If I understand what you are saying it would mean or imply that Purgatory is empty and that is definitely NOT a Church teaching.

But purgatory could be instant. I just never understood 2 judgements. I get pulled out of hell to be judged again and sent back ? I know what you are saying though.

 

[ajcstr]

1. So it says in the bible, or at least it is very unclear, that everyone is indeed in heaven right now. Can you guys explain to me verses that show people are not in a temporary pause(those who died are not in heaven yet) until the coming of the Lord. Please explain them all to me, with the Nabre version if possible. It is unclear on when Paul spoke about those who have fallen asleep and stuff(what does that mean, “fallen asleep”). Anyways help me. The cathecism says that we go to heaven after we die, but please explain to me why with various verses.

This site looks pretty interesting, though I did not read the entire thing:

blog.theotokos.co.za/?p=544

 

[ajcstr]

1. I am amazed that you are so quickly forsaking the one who called you[f] by [the] grace [of Christ] for a different gospel 7 (not that there is another). But there are some who are disturbing you and wish to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach [to you] a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed![g] 9 As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed! 10 Am I now currying favor with human beings or God? Or am I seeking to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a slave of Christ.[h]

This verse notes this, other denominations use this to combat against catholics sometimes, saying that with our tradition it is untrue. Can you guys explain to me why it would not be untrue, why this verse does NOT support their claims, help me. Thank you!

Well, one can always take a step back and survey the state of Christianity and note that there are “different” gospels. So unless you know which is the correct gospel, is easy to say “You don’t believe as I do so you are following a false gospel”. In an Anglican bible study, the leader made a comment that suggesting Mary had no other children is a heresy. So when one makes the statement you posted, he/she obviously believes he has the true gospel and you don’t.

Same site - different tab may help with this

blog.theotokos.co.za/?p=3035

 

[Church_Militant]

I’ve got an answer for ya.

Who REALLY Preaches “A Different Gospel”?