2 Timothy 3:16-17 and Sola Scriptura

[MarcoPolo]

Carried over from another thread where it was getting off-topic:​

For those who want to know the weakness of James White’s (and essentially John MacArthur’s) 2 Tim 3:16-17 “exegesis,” here is how it fails:

2 Tim 3:16-17 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete (artios), equipped (exartizo) for every good work.

(White’s unedited analysis in his opening remarks) First, the more irrelevant error. Patrick Madrid points out regarding White’s appeal that the Greek words labelled refer to a total completeness and sufficiency: “White was able to find a single Greek lexicon that listed " sufficient " as a possible translation of artios and another lexicon that listed “sufficient” as a possible translation of exartizo. But, as I pointed out, the lexicons he cited listed “sufficient” as a third or fourth translation of artios and exartizo. None listed “sufficient” as the primary or even secondary meaning.” In fact, with regard to exartizo, all the published Protestant Bible versions (KJV, NKJV, RSV, NRSV, NIV, etc.) agree that “sufficient” is not the correct translation of these terms in this instance.

Secondly, and far more fatal to White’s exegesis is the obvious, which I mentioned in post 10 (of other thread). Let’s say White was 100% correct and the words “complete” and “equipped” refer to a totality of completeness and adequacy. He spends almost no time analyzing the word “profitable” that introduces these words.

So according to him, the passage basically says, “All Scripture is profitable for making us totally complete and making us completely sufficient for every good work.”

#1: His exegesis of this verse puts it in conflict with other verses of Scripture.
#2: Where in the verse do we see “only” Scripture is profitable for making us complete? Nowhere. White and MacArthur add this word in their explanation of the verse.
#3: The Greek word for “profitable,” ophelimos, means profitable and helpful or serviceable, i.e. advantageous. As Jimmy Akin says, a hammer is useful for driving nails, but not “only” a hammer can drive in nails, i.e. nail gun, blunt object, etc…

And as I said: So Scripture is helpful to make us complete? AMEN! Paul is on the money.

White’s exegesis is D.O.A. and really is nothing more than wishful thinking because he is left with no part of Scripture that teaches Sola Scriptura…

 

[Harmony1988]

Very good Marco. Excellent, you infact disproved it with their own bible translation

I also noticed quite a bit that Protestants love to randomnly add the words ‘only’ into scripture, it has led many to great confusion.

 

[Harmony1988]

From his speech:

“I pray tonight that you don’t leave this alone here and that you continue to search for the truth and I hope to see all of you in Heaven some day. Thank you very much.”

Glad to see he is so sure that he is going to be there. I mean…not passing judgement on him in anyway, but we aren’t supposed to presume we will definitely go to heaven, am I right? But instead to strive always for perfection and pray for God’s mercy for people everywhere.

Because compared to him we are nothing.

 

[Ceil-1]

Well, he did say he hopes.

 

[Sola_C_F_G_S_DG]

Carried over from another thread where it was getting off-topic:​

White’s exegesis is D.O.A. and really is nothing more than wishful thinking because he is left with no part of Scripture that teaches Sola Scriptura…

As I stated earlier, I think context will help us out here. Teaching the sufficiency of Scripture from this passage is not wishful thinking, it’s apostolic thinking. It’s Pauline thinking.

Let’s remember, 1&2 Timothy, along with Titus, are considered teh “Pastoral Epistles.” 2 Timothy is the last epistle Paul wrote, and is often considered his dying words (4:9-18). So this is Paul’s last chance, as an apostle, pastor, and preacher, to pour his life and heart out to the next young pastor of the church at Ephesus.

In chapter 3, he addresses the topic of “perilous times to come” (v.1), and how to carry out ministry in the face of severe opposition, false teaching, and persecution. Paul lists 24 things that characterize perilous times. He mentions those who are “never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.” (v.7). He assures Timothy that “all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution” (v.12).

How does a young pastor carry-out the work of the ministry in such difficult circumstances? By preaching the word! (4:2) Paul’s whole argument and the thrust of his advice have been building up to this climactic point. Preaching the Scripture is Timothy’s primary task because the Scripture is the only thing with divine life (theopneustos), therefore, it is all he needs. That’s what makes Scripture so powerful and unique. That’s why Paul would not tell Timothy to make his primary task anything other than preaching the Scripture.

Of course Catholics like to object (and Protestants would agree) that “word” (logos) does not only refer to written truth, but truth incarnate (Christ) as well, which is certainly true. But in this case, given the context of the preceeding verses, we should understand “word” as meaning Scripture. But even if that cannot be accepted, it’s still okay to understand logos in its broader sense, because Paul’s meaning would still be, “Preach the logos (written and incarnate)” as it is found in the “Holy Scriptures,” “which you have known from childhood.”(v.15)

It cannot be denied that the term “Holy Scriptures” is referring to written truth. Greek “gramma” means letter. grammatos (plural) means document, epistle, book. Timothy is told to “continue in… the Holy Scriptures” which he has “learned and been assured of” v.15.

In the face of adversity and persecution, young Timothy is exhorted to preach the Word as found in the Holy Scriptures.

After all, it is the "Scripture which

1. is given by inspiration of God
2. is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction
3. completes the man of God
4. thorougly equips for every good work.

BTW, what does D.O.A mean?

 

[graceandglory]

It cannot be denied that the term “Holy Scriptures” is referring to written truth. Greek “gramma” means letter. grammatos (plural) means document, epistle, book. Timothy is told to “continue in… the Holy Scriptures” which he has “learned and been assured of” v.15.

In the face of adversity and persecution, young Timothy is exhorted to preach the Word as found in the Holy Scriptures.

After all, it is the "Scripture which

1. is given by inspiration of God
2. is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction
3. completes the man of God
4. thorougly equips for every good work.

Well, since the canon of the New Testament wasn’t written down and compiled when Timothy 1 and 2 were written, it is safe to conclude that he was speaking only of the Old Testament Jewish Scriptures. Therefore, sola scriptura should be faithful and exclude anything that was compiled after the time of Christ.

 

[Harmony1988]

Well, he did say he hopes.

‘I hope to see all of you’ implies that the person who is ‘I’ is already there.

‘I hope to see all of you at the football game this saturday’

 

[Harmony1988]

Quoting Sola

Nice…except it all amounts to nothing for your argument when you mess up the historical dates as mentioned by graceandglory.

 

[Sola_C_F_G_S_DG]

Well, since the canon of the New Testament wasn’t written down and compiled when Timothy 1 and 2 were written, it is safe to conclude that he was speaking only of the Old Testament Jewish Scriptures. Therefore, sola scriptura should be faithful and exclude anything that was compiled after the time of Christ.

I used to get hung up on that point too. But context again provides the answer.

v.10 you have carefully followed MY doctrine
v.13 you must continue in the things you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them [Paul referring to himself, Timothy’s mentor]

As Paul mentored Timothy,he was very aware that what he was writing and teaching young Timothy was Scripture. Timothy was to continue in the things he learned from Paul. That would be the NT Scriptures, not just OT. Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, etc had all been written and circulated by the time this letter was written. Those letters of Scripture are included in this exhortation. After all, Timothy will take over the pastorate at Ephesus, so the letter to the Ephesians will be an important Scripture for Timothy to preach as well.

 

[Sola_C_F_G_S_DG]

, but we aren’t supposed to presume we will definitely go to heaven, am I right? But instead to strive always for perfection and pray for God’s mercy for people everywhere.
.

This is probably for another thread, but what I find most sad about Catholic theology is the lack of hope.

 

[Sola_C_F_G_S_DG]

."

#1: His exegesis of this verse puts it in conflict with other verses of Scripture.

Marco-the link to the other verses isn’t working, can you try again? Assuming they’re going to take us to Scripture & Tradition verses…

 

[Sola_C_F_G_S_DG]

#2: Where in the verse do we see “only” Scripture is profitable for making us complete? Nowhere. White and MacArthur add this word in their explanation of the verse.

theopneustos. God-breathed. I forget the latin term, but this is one of those words that only occurs in one place. hence, the basis for the Protestant “only.” No other source is theopneustos. no other source has the life-breath of God breathed into it. Hence, if I may, everything else is “dead.” Why us anything but the theopneustos Scripture alone? you can’t explain the grammar without using the word “only” somewhere in your explanation.

Or, I guess you could always use “sola”

 

[cascherman]

This is probably for another thread, but what I find most sad about Catholic theology is the lack of hope.

Being sure I am going to heaven is the only definition of hope?

I have great hope in what Christ did for me and I have great hope in the Father who sent him. I have great hope in my fellow Catholics and Christians.

No Catholic who loves his faith will tell you he lacks hope.

We just believe we have to show God that we accept his grace by following his commands and bearing good fruit. Not optional.

John 15:2-4

He takes away every branch in me that does not bear fruit, and everyone that does he prunes so that it bears more fruit. You are already pruned because of the word that I spoke to you. Remain in me, as I remain in you. Just as a branch cannot bear fruit on its own unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in me.

Should we be so sure about our salvation? And if we are not are we lacking all hope?

 

[cascherman]

theopneustos. God-breathed. I forget the latin term, but this is one of those words that only occurs in one place. hence, the basis for the Protestant “only.” No other source is theopneustos. no other source has the life-breath of God breathed into it. Hence, if I may, everything else is “dead.” Why us anything but the theopneustos Scripture alone? you can’t explain the grammar without using the word “only” somewhere in your explanation.

Or, I guess you could always use “sola”

So your argument, I suppose, is that if the Church were as authoritative as the Bible that word should be applied to it somewhere in the Bible as well?

 

[Sola_C_F_G_S_DG]

#3: The Greek word for “profitable,” ophelimos, means profitable and helpful or serviceable, i.e. advantageous. As Jimmy Akin says, a hammer is useful for driving nails, but not “only” a hammer can drive in nails, i.e. nail gun, blunt object, etc…

Heb 4:12 The Word of God is living and active, sharper than a double edged sword, able to pierce soul and marrow.

A scalpel is useful for doing surgery (piercing soul and marrow). But not “only” a scalpel can cut skin, a flint, a hand saw, an ax. Only the Word of God can get into the soul to perform its intended work. Anything else could be detrimental.

You have to use specific tools for specific results. Nail guns are used for driving 3" nails into rough framing, ball pen hammers to delicately tap brads into fine furniture. There are framers hammers and there are finish hammers. A person would be a fool to use a nail gun to finish furniture, it’d blast it to pieces!

Same with the Scriptures. The Scriptures, and only the Scriptures, can be used to complete the man of God and thorougly equip him for every good work. using anything but the Scripture alone might destroy lives rather than save them.

 

[Sola_C_F_G_S_DG]

So your argument, I suppose, is that if the Church were as authoritative as the Bible that word should be applied to it somewhere in the Bible as well?

Would you please remove that symbol from your signature, it is an offence to my risen Lord and my own conscience. Until then I have to skim past your posts as I browse this thread

 

[ni8_shadow]

I used to get hung up on that point too. But context again provides the answer.

v.10 you have carefully followed MY doctrine
v.13 you must continue in the things you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them [Paul referring to himself, Timothy’s mentor]

As Paul mentored Timothy,he was very aware that what he was writing and teaching young Timothy was Scripture. Timothy was to continue in the things he learned from Paul. That would be the NT Scriptures, not just OT. Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, etc had all been written and circulated by the time this letter was written. Those letters of Scripture are included in this exhortation. After all, Timothy will take over the pastorate at Ephesus, so the letter to the Ephesians will be an important Scripture for Timothy to preach as well.

I don’t think Paul knew he was writing Scripture, otherwise why not plainly say it? “Timothy, the letters I wrote are inspired so only look to them for the truth for they have the autograph of God.” Instead we see Paul alluding to many different sources, including scripture, Timothy should look to in order to be fully equipped.

You also said that what Paul was writing AND teaching Timothy was inspired. You admit then that there is teaching that is passed on orally and Christians are bound to that as well. Kind of destroys your case, since the teachings are NOT written down.

If what you say is true, then Timothy, nor any other follower of Christ would have to follow what all the OTHER NT books teach since Paul did not write them.

Paul is about to die and here is his chance to cleary tell Timothy that the Christian is only to follow the 27 books of the Nt and the 46 or 39 books of the OT. But he, or rather, the Holy Spirit, does not do so. Why? Because this is not what Paul believed or intended to teach. Paul wants Timothy to follow his teachings, written AND unwritten, beacuse he is an Apostle. He has that authority. He wants Tim to follow his teachings because they are NOT his, but God’s.

The Scriptures Paul refers to, Timothy has known since he was a kid…that disqualifies ANY NT book.

Not to mention all the other verses in the NT that praise Churches for holding on to orally inspired teachings that they HEARD. It is clear that there are two sources of revelation Paul talks about, oral AND written, if you deny one or the other, then you deny what Christ intended for His Church.

 

[ni8_shadow]

Would you please remove that symbol from your signature, it is an offence to my risen Lord and my own conscience. Until then I have to skim past your posts as I browse this thread

You don’t think Christ likes the Trinity:shrug: Oh and when did He tell you it offends him? Did he leave you a comment on myspace?

 

[Sola_C_F_G_S_DG]

I don’t think Paul knew he was writing Scripture, otherwise why not plainly say it?

People said the same thing about Jesus. “If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” Jn 10:24. Jesus answered them “I told you, and you do not believe.”

The reactioin that unbelievers had toward the incarnate word of God is similar to the reaction unbelievers have toward the written word of God.

Paul didn’t need to say anything any different than he did. He didn’t have a speech impediment. He’d say it the same way now as he did then. Do you believe the Scriptures are God’s Word or not?

God doesn’t need us as editors.

 

[Sola_C_F_G_S_DG]

Paul wants Timothy to follow his teachings, written AND unwritten, beacuse he is an Apostle. He has that authority. .

Throughout the NT. setting oneself in a position of authority was characteristic of false teaching. Paul would never assert his own authority. He would much rather boast about his own weaknesses so that the power is of God and not ourselves.