2 Women in Prophecy?!?

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JesusIsTheWay

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I was thinking about another thread that I was discussing with a few other people and it got me thinking…

There are 2 women in Revelation…

The first one is in Rev. 12

verse 1: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars

Now I was told that this woman was use to indicate Mary… OK fine… lets roll with that… the woman here is a literal woman described as giving birth to Christ who would rule with a Rod of Iron… ok cool… this point I will not debate either…

The Other woman in Revelation:

Chaoter 17

2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

So we have 2 women here… one is interpretted literally as Mary… so is the other woman to be taken literally as well? Is there literally (or was there literally) a woman who represented the Whore of Babylon? Or is she to be taken symbolically? If so why, if we are to still accept the first woman as literal?? Why the transition from literal to symbolic? What grounds did we interpret it that way? Are there other scriptures that do the same thing?

What do you all think?
 
You would be wise to read the wisdom literature in the Bible. In the wisdom books there is often talk of a loose woman or a seducer of men. This doesn’t refer to anyone in particular but is used to bring the concepts into imagery that could have been understood at the time.
 
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Mjohn1453:
You would be wise to read the wisdom literature in the Bible. In the wisdom books there is often talk of a loose woman or a seducer of men. This doesn’t refer to anyone in particular but is used to bring the concepts into imagery that could have been understood at the time.
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I’m sorry I don’t understand. What wisdom books are you referring to? So are you saying that this particular woman is actually a bunch of women? I’m not trying to nitpick… I just don’t know your sources…
 
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JesusIsTheWay:
Chaoter 17

2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

What do you all think?
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Look at the following verses:
“How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.”

“For of old time I have broken thy yoke, and burst thy bands; and thou saidst, I will not transgress; when upon every high hill and under every green tree thou wanderest, playing the harlot.”

“They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man’s, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD. Lift up thine eyes unto the high places, and see where thou hast not been lien with. In the ways hast thou sat for them, as the Arabian in the wilderness; and thou hast polluted the land with thy whoredoms and with thy wickedness. Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no latter rain; and thou hadst a whore’s forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed.”

“But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was. And of thy garments thou didst take, and deckedst thy high places with divers colours, and playedst the harlot thereupon: the like things shall not come, neither shall it be so. Thou hast also taken thy fair jewels of my gold and of my silver, which I had given thee, and madest to thyself images of men, and didst commit whoredom with them, And tookest thy broidered garments, and coveredst them: and thou hast set mine oil and mine incense before them.” Those verses aren’t from Revelation; they are Isaiah 1:21, Jeremiah 2:20, Jeremiah 3:1-3, and Ezekiel 16:15-18 respectively. And the identity of the harlot? It is Jerusalem.

Revelation 17:15-18
And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. and the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

“Great city”? Which city is “the great city”? Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.. Now Jesus Christ crucified in Jerusalem.
The Whore is Jerusalem.
 
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metal1633:
Look at the following verses: “How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.”

“For of old time I have broken thy yoke, and burst thy bands; and thou saidst, I will not transgress; when upon every high hill and under every green tree thou wanderest, playing the harlot.”

“They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man’s, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD. Lift up thine eyes unto the high places, and see where thou hast not been lien with. In the ways hast thou sat for them, as the Arabian in the wilderness; and thou hast polluted the land with thy whoredoms and with thy wickedness. Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no latter rain; and thou hadst a whore’s forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed.”

“But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was. And of thy garments thou didst take, and deckedst thy high places with divers colours, and playedst the harlot thereupon: the like things shall not come, neither shall it be so. Thou hast also taken thy fair jewels of my gold and of my silver, which I had given thee, and madest to thyself images of men, and didst commit whoredom with them, And tookest thy broidered garments, and coveredst them: and thou hast set mine oil and mine incense before them.”
Those verses aren’t from Revelation; they are Isaiah 1:21, Jeremiah 2:20, Jeremiah 3:1-3, and Ezekiel 16:15-18 respectively. And the identity of the harlot? It is Jerusalem.

Revelation 17:15-18

And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. and the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

“Great city”? Which city is “the great city”?Revelation 11:8

And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified..
Now Jesus Christ crucified in Jerusalem.

The Whore is Jerusalem.
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Ok then that lewads to the other part of my original question… one woman is taken literally and the other is symbolically… so…

Why this woman symbolic, if we are to still accept the first woman as literal?? Why the transition from literal to symbolic? What grounds did we interpret it that way? Are there other scriptures that do the same thing?
 
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metal1633:
Now Jesus Christ crucified in Jerusalem.The Whore is Jerusalem.
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question. name the seven mountains in wich Jerusalem sits
hint= if you cannot name them then name any city that sits on seven mountains.

9"Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.
 
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cornerstone:
question. name the seven mountains in wich Jerusalem sits
hint= if you cannot name them then name any city that sits on seven mountains.

9"Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.
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Mt. Goath, Mt. Gareb, Mt. Acra, Mt. Bezetha, Mt. Zion, Mt. Ophel, and Mt. Moriah.

Anything else??
 
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JesusIsTheWay:
Ok then that lewads to the other part of my original question… one woman is taken literally and the other is symbolically… so…

Why this woman symbolic, if we are to still accept the first woman as literal?? Why the transition from literal to symbolic? What grounds did we interpret it that way? Are there other scriptures that do the same thing?
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The woman in Rev 12 IS Symbolic. She represents Mary as Mother of the Messiah amd as Ark of the Covenant, She represents Isreal, she represents the Church. There are many layers to the symbolism in Revelation.
 
yes actually. can i put down some more verses so you can twist them as we go?
try this one

6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
 
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cornerstone:
question. name the seven mountains in wich Jerusalem sits
hint= if you cannot name them then name any city that sits on seven mountains.

9"Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.
Click to expand...
And yes I know where you are trying to go with this. So to preempt you…Rome isn’t built on seven mountains; it’s built on seven hills, as are Constaninople, Edinburgh, San Francisco, and Cincinnati. Mountains are big, hills are small. There are two separate words for them and Scripture is familiar with both (see Luke 3:5 and Luke 23:30). Rome’s hills are Palatine, Aventine, Capitoline, Quarinal, Viminal, Esquiline Caelian and of course Vatican Hill. HEY WAIT. Thats EIGHT Hills.

In Ancient Rome, Vatican Hill wasnt counted because it stands apart from the others and is seperated from them by a river.
 
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

cool. now twist it so you can make this Jerusalem.
 
JesusIsTheWay

To answer your question as to why they went from symbolic to literal. No one knows. Revelations is one of the hardest books in the Bible to understand. Proverbs also has a lot of it mixed in there as well as the prophetic references listed above.
 
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cornerstone:
yes actually. can i put down some more verses so you can twist them as we go?
try this one

6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
Click to expand...
Excuse me? Is it your TWISTED position that the Jews did NOT persecuted Christians? Tell that to Saul of Tarsus. The Jews of Jerusalem (the Mother of Harlots) used Rome (“rides the beast”) all throughout the New Testament, using Roman power to kill the Messiah and try to destroy the People of God, the Church.

Babylon is fallen. Imperial Rome destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D.
 
cornerstone said:
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

cool. now twist it so you can make this Jerusalem.
Click to expand...

I dont need to twist it. I just need to read the rest. Give it a try.

Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified..
 
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Mjohn1453:
JesusIsTheWay

To answer your question as to why they went from symbolic to literal. No one knows. Revelations is one of the hardest books in the Bible to understand. Proverbs also has a lot of it mixed in there as well as the prophetic references listed above.
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I agree… some of it is just totally cryptic… I hope Jesus has a huge “Question Jar” for us when we get up there… this will be in it heheheh
 
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JesusIsTheWay:
So we have 2 women here… one is interpretted literally as Mary… so is the other woman to be taken literally as well? Is there literally (or was there literally) a woman who represented the Whore of Babylon? Or is she to be taken symbolically? If so why, if we are to still accept the first woman as literal?? Why the transition from literal to symbolic? What grounds did we interpret it that way? Are there other scriptures that do the same thing?

What do you all think?
Click to expand...
What I think is that by juxtaposing chapters 12 and 17, you are wrenching both out of context.

Look at the rest of the characters in Chapter 12, for example. Arguably, you can say that they all refer to an identifiable person: Satan (the Dragon), Michael, and Jesus (the child). If all of these can be identified as individuals, so can the woman be identified as Mary, especially since in the context of the chapter, it makes sense.

Apocalyptic writing is not a neat and clean as some people like to present it. When you hear someone say “When you see such and such in prophecy it always means so and so,” you can be sure you are dealing with someone who has a formulaic concept of Scripture interpretation.
 
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Fidelis:
What I think is that by juxtaposing chapters 12 and 17, you are wrenching both out of context.

Look at the rest of the characters in Chapter 12, for example. Arguably, you can say that they all refer to an identifiable person: Satan (the Dragon), Michael, and Jesus (the child). If all of these can be identified as individuals, so can the woman be identified as Mary, especially since in the context of the chapter, it makes sense.

Apocalyptic writing is not a neat and clean as some people like to present it. When you hear someone say “When you see such and such in prophecy it always means so and so,” you can be sure you are dealing with someone who has a formulaic concept of Scripture interpretation.
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Well if I don’t question, how do I learn? That was my only purpose in this thread. I am not attacking anyone. I’m not trying to make a point and I don’t have any hidden agendas. My very first post stated the purpose of me being in these forums. I am strictly here to learn… about doctrine, apologetics, opinions of others, and mostly more about myself. I have learn A LOT being here. I know a lot of people don’t agree with me. And that’s ok. Because if everyone agreed with each other then I would doubt forums would ever exist.

My apologies for “wrenching things out of context.” it wasn’t my intention. I was simply trying to make/sever a connection…
 
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cornerstone:
question. name the seven mountains in wich Jerusalem sits
hint= if you cannot name them then name any city that sits on seven mountains.

9"Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.
Click to expand...
rome sits on 7 hills also. (as i posted in another thread…so does cincinnati, oh which is why they consider their sister city rome).
 
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JesusIsTheWay:
Well if I don’t question, how do I learn? That was my only purpose in this thread. I am not attacking anyone. I’m not trying to make a point and I don’t have any hidden agendas. My very first post stated the purpose of me being in these forums. I am strictly here to learn… about doctrine, apologetics, opinions of others, and mostly more about myself. I have learn A LOT being here. I know a lot of people don’t agree with me. And that’s ok. Because if everyone agreed with each other then I would doubt forums would ever exist.

My apologies for “wrenching things out of context.” it wasn’t my intention. I was simply trying to make/sever a connection…
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Honestly, I didn’t mean anything personal and wasn’t assuming you were acting out of ill will. I was speaking more of your exegesis than of you personally. My sincere apologies for any offense given.
 
This is a very interesting topic.

JesusIsTheWay: My answer would be that Revelation uses different descriptions for the two women. One sounds more literal than the other. The first woman is described in human terms, giving birth to what is clearly meant to be Jesus (the woman couldn’t be the Church, then, since Jesus made the Church, not the other way around.) The Whore, on the other hand, is assigned to a city.

And is it just me, or is cornerstone trying to force the Catholic Church into the Whore of Babylon mold? The whole seven mountains of Jerusalem reference and the “land where Jesus was crucified” verse was totally blown off. Historically speaking, Jerusalem fits the mold perfectly. The Jews had the early Church excommunicated and persecuted. And what about the whole “we have no king but Caesar” line? Sounds like someone whoring around with the Roman authorities.
 
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