20-something trying to figure out morality

[NEWCATHOLICJEFF]

Can somebody answer this question please. #3 cannot be changed or wished away.

#1 A man has two Children from a previous marriage

#2 His wife dies giving birth to a third child.

#3 He and another women decide to get married, but both know that they will NEVER and I mean NEVER have sexual relations to consumate their marriage even though they physically can. I repeat they ABSOLUTLEY KNOW with certanty they will not have sexual relations.

#4 The father has decided to adopt a daughter and he and the women will not have any more children.

#5 The woman and man will raise the fathers adopted child together.

Can they be validly married in the Church, and if not why?

 

[Bishop93]

Can somebody answer this question please. #3 cannot be changed or wished away.

#1 A man has two Children from a previous marriage

#2 His wife dies giving birth to a third child.

#3 He and another women decide to get married, but both know that they will NEVER and I mean NEVER have sexual relations to consumate their marriage even though they physically can. I repeat they ABSOLUTLEY KNOW with certanty they will not have sexual relations.

#4 The father has decided to adopt a daughter and he and the women will not have any more children.

#5 The woman and man will raise the fathers adopted child together.

Can they be validly married in the Church, and if not why?

If you marry then I seriously doubt that you will absolutely “never” have sex.

If there’s a medical reason that could prove me wrong then I apologize…BUT there is more that one way to have sex.

 

[NEWCATHOLICJEFF]

If you marry then I seriously doubt that you will absolutely “never” have sex.

If there’s a medical reason that could prove me wrong then I apologize…BUT there is more that one way to have sex.

This is a question on church teaching… a what if… the part about NEVER is in stone and cannot be changed…so what is the answer GIVEN the parameters of the question? Answer it just for fun…

 

[Bishop93]

This is a question on church teaching… a what if… the part about NEVER is in stone and cannot be changed…so what is the answer GIVEN the parameters of the question? Answer it just for fun…

Ohhhhh

Well,from what I’ve read around here a man can’t marry unless he can successfully please his wife.

I get that notion^^^…Because I read several times that a man who is sexually incompetent (they use a word for it but I can’t remember) must remain single because they can’t please a wife.

The man in question I would assume would require to be celibate.

That’s my observance^^^…But I could be wrong.

 

[Bishop93]

Ohhhhh

Well,from what I’ve read around here a man can’t marry unless he can successfully please his wife.

I get that notion^^^…Because I read several times that a man who is sexually incompetent (they use a word for it but I can’t remember) must remain single because they can’t please a wife.

The man in question I would assume would require to be celibate.

That’s my observance^^^…But I could be wrong.

Pro-creation is also an issue in both cases

 

[Seatuck]

Can somebody answer this question please. #3 cannot be changed or wished away.

#1 A man has two Children from a previous marriage

#2 His wife dies giving birth to a third child.

#3 He and another women decide to get married, but both know that they will NEVER and I mean NEVER have sexual relations to consumate their marriage even though they physically can. I repeat they ABSOLUTLEY KNOW with certanty they will not have sexual relations.

#4 The father has decided to adopt a daughter and he and the women will not have any more children.

#5 The woman and man will raise the fathers adopted child together.

Can they be validly married in the Church, and if not why?

It depends. They would have to undergo spiritual counseling as to the reason for their not having sex. They would have to accept that sex is part of marriage and if either spouse chose to end living a continent life they do have the obligation to render the marital act upon reasonable request. There have been “Josephite Marriages” that have been allowed by the church. Those generally have a spiritual reason for abstaining from the marital act though.

The marital act is both procreative and unitive in marriage. It speaks a language that is reflective of the love in the Trinity, the love of Christ for his Church and also reflective of communion. It is how spouses renew their marriage vows. A marriage is not ratified without the couple having come together once in the marital act. So this couple may have a valid marriage but it would be dissolvable. That’s not usually the best way to go into a marriage from a psychological perspective. It’s better to have a more permanent approach.

 

[Newbie2]

You can never marry because marriage is for procreation. You must live a celebate life dedicated to the Lord.

Bull-oney. This is not a teaching of the Catholic Church. As has been said, fertility is not a necessary requirement for marriage.

 

[NEWCATHOLICJEFF]

Bull-oney. This is not a teaching of the Catholic Church. As has been said, fertility is not a necessary requirement for marriage.

My understanding was that a man incapable of consummation could not be married, I was wondering if anyone knew of the references for this or if I am mistaken?

 

[JimG]

Permanent and absolutely incurable impotence existing prior to marriage, is an impediment to marriage.

Sterility of either party is not an impediment to marriage.

As far as I know, abstinence during marriage is not an impediment to marriage–even intended permanent abstinence.

After all, Joseph and Mary were married.

There are instances in the history of the Church of couples who married while intending permanent abstinence.

Let’s not make it too complicated.

 

[NEWCATHOLICJEFF]

Permanent and absolutely incurable impotence existing prior to marriage, is an impediment to marriage.

Sterility of either party is not an impediment to marriage.

As far as I know, abstinence during marriage is not an impediment to marriage–even intended permanent abstinence.

After all, Joseph and Mary were married.

There are instances in the history of the Church of couples who married while intending permanent abstinence.

Let’s not make it too complicated.

=============================
Jim,

What if no disability existed, but both parties KNEW with certainty that they would never consummate the Sacrament. The below makes me think that regardless of capabilty the actual act must be performed.

**1618 **
Christ is the center of all Christian life. The bond with him takes precedence over all other bonds, familial or social. From the very beginning of the Church there have been men and women who have renounced the great good of marriage to follow the Lamb wherever he goes, to be intent on the things of the Lord, to seek to please him, and to go out to meet the Bridegroom who is coming. Christ himself has invited certain persons to follow him in this way of life, of which he remains the model:

MATT 19: 11-12*** (I added verse 11 to the CCC citation)"11 ***But he said the them "Not all men can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given. 12 For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to receive this, let him receive it."

 

[NEWCATHOLICJEFF]

… They would have to accept that sex is part of marriage and if either spouse chose to end living a continent life they do have the obligation to render the marital act upon reasonable request… .

“So as long as neither wants to consummate the Sacrament it would still be considered a marriage?”

The marital act is both procreative and unitive in marriage. .

'Must it be procreative?"

A marriage is not ratified without the couple having come together once in the marital act. So this couple may have a valid marriage but it would be dissolvable. .

“If it is considered a valid marriage, never having been consummated, would it be considered a less-than merriage since it did not have the pro-creative aspect of the sacrament?”

 

[Newbie2]

My understanding was that a man incapable of consummation could not be married, I was wondering if anyone knew of the references for this or if I am mistaken?

No, you are correct. Lack of ability to consumate (impotence) and fertility are not necessarily the same thing.

 

[JimG]

=============================
Jim,

What if no disability existed, but both parties KNEW with certainty that they would never consummate the Sacrament. The below makes me think that regardless of capabilty the actual act must be performed.

**1618 **
Christ is the center of all Christian life. The bond with him takes precedence over all other bonds, familial or social. From the very beginning of the Church there have been men and women who have renounced the great good of marriage to follow the Lamb wherever he goes, to be intent on the things of the Lord, to seek to please him, and to go out to meet the Bridegroom who is coming. Christ himself has invited certain persons to follow him in this way of life, of which he remains the model:

MATT 19: 11-12*** (I added verse 11 to the CCC citation)"11 ***But he said the them "Not all men can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given. 12 For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to receive this, let him receive it."

I can’t cite them off the top of my head, but I’m certain there have been holy Catholic couples in the past who have entered into valid marriages with the express intent to abstain from marital relations, with the idea to better serve the Church in some capacity. There was one instance, sorry I can’t recall the name, where the couple continued in this manner, but was convinced later by their pastor that this was not God’s will for them, so they eventually consummated the marriage and had many children.

But the mere fact of abstaining or intending to abstain, from marital intercourse, would not invalidate the marriage, as long as the couple accepted that any marital act that they might consummate in the future must be open to life.