20 Truths about Mormons

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isaac.madsen

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I am starting this thread in response to the following link:
trialsofascension.net/mormon.html

After reading much of what is listed there, I went over to ldschat.com in order to see what kind of response I would get. I’ve been a member of the LDS faith all of my life and over the past year began questioning my faith. Still, I have remained a member despite the obvious faults in the church. I never expected to be kicked out of the church, but I have every reason to believe that if I continue in my efforts to discover truth, that will be exactly the case. Within 5 minutes, I became officially banned from ldschat.com for merely asking questions about the church, quoting material directly from LDS-approved literature. Needless to say, I received no answer to those questions. Neither did I receive any explanation for why I was banned against their policy, which states that users can be banned only “after being warned.” I received no such warning.

The purpose of this discussion is not my being banned from ldschat.com, however. I intend that the focus will be on the 20 Truths about Mormonism article. Please keep the discussion polite and I’m tired of being attacked by members of all religions, including my own, which I expect to soon leave of my own will or become excommunicated for my knowledge of it’s origin.
 
One of the Truths, Blood atonement is troubling. From what I read, is that to say that one must kill himself in order to acheive atonement for a sin that isn’t “covered” by the Blood of Jesus?
 
I have been down this road before and it doesn’t mean much. First, your website is antimormon designed to lead people out of the faith. And that in a nutshell would cloud the site.

Also, if you are searching for answers, I would not recommend antimormon sites. I have found that most of these sites do not have a hold on the ‘truth’. And they can twist the information.

I have no idea what ldschat is, however, you can try: www.mormonapologetics.org for some answers from some of the posters. Also, www.fairlds.org also has answers to some of the issues raised in 20 ‘truths’ about Mormonism.

You seem to be very influenced by anti mormon literature. It happens. Good luck in you search for the truth.
 
What sort of questions did you ask? there are both Mormons and ex-Mormons here.
 
I find the Kinderhook plates story very interesting. I recently read about this in Grant Palmer’s book, An Insider’s View Of Mormon Origins.

My personal opinion is that Joseph Smith was a con man, and a particularly brazen one, at that. He was brave enough to operate on a large stage. Fortunately, though, he was susceptible to being conned, himself, and this appears to be the case with the Kinderhook plates story. It seems that stories like this don’t have much effect on true believing Mormons. However, my guess is that most Mormons know nothing about this stuff. My fiance spent 25+ years as a Mormon and knew nothing whatever about this, or 99% of strange Mormon doctrines.
 
The website in not anti-Mormon. To be anti-Mormon requires that something is out to destroy the LDS religion. 20 Truths is not out to destroy anything, but to reveal truth. The sources are primarily LDS-approved literature. Look at it for yourself. It is a very objective website and includes the apologetic views along with the opposing views. That is the only intelligent way of going about any type of research. You must research both the pros and cons of a situation before making a decision.

Mormonism tends to give you all the pros and hides all the cons. There is a reason the dark part of the first vision is left out of missionariy discussions. Missionaries use all of the “warm fuzzies” and “feel good” topics on investigators and then say, “Did you have a good feeling? That’s the spirit telling you the church is true.” Of course a load of people are going to accept it, but that doesn’t make it true. It’s like handing someone an ice pack on a hot day so they can cool off and saying “My church is true because we can make you feel better.” So the person sacrifices everything to join the church because they believe it will get them out of the heat, but they discover that it doesn’t get them out of the heat. Rather it’s built in the middle of the sun so you’ll definitely feel hot and the leaders come around sprinking ice water on occasion. It feels really good when it happens so the members tell eachother, “It’s those moments of good feelings that keep us strong and together as a group. Even though a lot of the time it’s terribly hot, when I feel the ice water I know the church is true because that good feeling is God telling me it is so.”

I’m not out to destroy such a religion or any religion for that matter. I’d just rather people realize that the solution to heat stroke isn’t getting sprinkled with ice water. It’s getting out of the sun that has been blinding them and making their brains fuzzy. In other words, to know truth isn’t to “have good feelings” (which Mormonism calls feeling the Holy Ghost), but it’s accepting that testimony isn’t truth. I can know with all my heart and testify that the world is flat, but that doesn’t make it so.
 
Syele said:
What sort of questions did you ask? there are both Mormons and ex-Mormons here.
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Well, that’s hard to say exactly as I am unable to go back and look at the transcript because I’m no longer allowed on the site. However, I do remember saying something to the effect that it seems strange that prophets should disagree with eachother and yet claim they speak for God… but even on that issue they disagree.

First, we have had over a dozen personal accounts of Joseph Smith’s first vision, but of course the church only recognizes the once currently in use (which wasn’t even written by Joseph himself though he approved it). Most members do not realize that Joseph Smith did not pen the majority of scripture we have. He was a farm boy with a poor education.

However, I’m straying from the point. Brigham Young then says, regarding the first vision, “the Lord did not come - but He did send His angel.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. II, p. 171). It was on quoting this church-authorized publication that I was immediately banned from the website without explanation.
 
Maybe I should clarify, however, that some material that is church authorized is not an official publication of the church. However, all the material available at lds.org is considered free game by most members.
 
why_me said:
I have no idea what ldschat is, however, you can try: www.mormonapologetics.org for some answers from some of the posters. Also, www.fairlds.org also has answers to some of the issues raised in 20 ‘truths’ about Mormonism.
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I have been to both of these website, and they were both very enlightening. I think it ought to be known that while I do not believe in the church, I still attend regularly with my family. Perhaps it is only out of the tiniest hope that somebody will eventually prove all of these historical facts false, but so far none have been able to do so. I am very well aware and have felt the feeling that Mormons tend to call “the Holy Ghost” or “the spirit.” I am convinced, however, that contrary to what I have been raised to believe, members of the LDS faith are not the only ones capable of having those feelings on a regular basis. I also do not believe that they necessarily speak of truth because as I have witnessed, “the spirit” can testify of contradicting ideas. One day I’ll feel extremely good about the church and therefore I must apparently know it is true. Another day, I’ll feel just as strongly that I must leave the church.
 
My prayer for you, isaac, is that you will not forsake religion completely. Many people leave a false religion and become atheists. Please don’t be one of those. The bitterness you are feeling may lead you away from God.

There is true religion, and you are in a good place to find it.
 
Allweather said:
My prayer for you, isaac, is that you will not forsake religion completely. Many people leave a false religion and become atheists. Please don’t be one of those. The bitterness you are feeling may lead you away from God.

There is true religion, and you are in a good place to find it.
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Thanks Allweather. I’ve received the same attitude from a variety of people and I appreciate the support. It has been a difficult thing indeed, but I have no doubts about Christ and have accepted him as my savior. While I do not believe the Bible is entirely accurate or complete, I have done a fair amount of research on Christ and certainly believe in him. While I am not certain the Catholic church is his true church and I do not agree with all the Catholic doctrine, I do believe that Christ’s church is a universal one. Look up the word “Catholic” and I believe you’ll find that universal is exactly what Catholic means.
 
Allweather said:
My prayer for you, isaac, is that you will not forsake religion completely. Many people leave a false religion and become atheists. Please don’t be one of those. The bitterness you are feeling may lead you away from God.

.
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That’s what happened to Steven Benson, Pulitzer Prize winning editorial cartoonist for the Arizona **Republic. **Steve was the gransdson of (now late) Mormon President & Prophet Ezra Taft Benson—and what SB saw in how the Mormon heirarchy paraded a dementia-affected old man as an infallible source of revelation broke the grandson’s faith and heart.
 
isaac.madsen said:
…to know truth isn’t to “have good feelings” (which Mormonism calls feeling the Holy Ghost), but it’s accepting that testimony isn’t truth. I can know with all my heart and testify that the world is flat, but that doesn’t make it so.
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Well my friend, it sounds as if you’ve arrived at that point where you’ll have to write that letter, like I did 21 years ago, asking to have your name removed from the records of the LDS Church.

Welcome to freedom!

Paul (former Mormon now Catholic)
 
isaac.madsen said:
Thanks Allweather. I’ve received the same attitude from a variety of people and I appreciate the support. It has been a difficult thing indeed, but I have no doubts about Christ and have accepted him as my savior. While I do not believe the Bible is entirely accurate or complete, I have done a fair amount of research on Christ and certainly believe in him. While I am not certain the Catholic church is his true church and I do not agree with all the Catholic doctrine, I do believe that Christ’s church is a universal one. Look up the word “Catholic” and I believe you’ll find that universal is exactly what Catholic means.
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Well, then, you’re on solid ground. Nevertheless, it is a process. None of us has arrived yet. Heck, it has taken me over 20 years to come to grips with some Catholic things.

God will lead you to where He wants you to be.
 
isaac.madsen said:
First, we have had over a dozen personal accounts of Joseph Smith’s first vision, but of course the church only recognizes the once currently in use (which wasn’t even written by Joseph himself though he approved it). Most members do not realize that Joseph Smith did not pen the majority of scripture we have. He was a farm boy with a poor education.
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This is false. There are not a dozen personal accounts of the first vision. Do you have a source to back this up? I know of three accounts said at different times. The lds church uses the official version. I am afraid that you are mistaken in your account. This is what makes me a little fishy about your claims. ´

What exactly don’t members realize? Who wrote the book of mormon? Did JS? was his story true? Who wrote it?
 
isaac.madsen said:
Mormonism tends to give you all the pros and hides all the cons. There is a reason the dark part of the first vision is left out of missionariy discussions. Missionaries use all of the “warm fuzzies” and “feel good” topics on investigators and then say, “Did you have a good feeling? That’s the spirit telling you the church is true.” Of course a load of people are going to accept it, but that doesn’t make it true. It’s like handing someone an ice pack on a hot day so they can cool off and saying “My church is true because we can make you feel better.”
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I have heard this before with former members. They say that they felt a ‘warm fuzzie’ as an explanation for the witnessing of truth that they received from the holy ghost. But I have often wondered if they are trying to come to terms with that great feeling of having the holy ghost bear witness of the truth. I have never felt a ‘warm fuzzie’ as you relate it and this wording has also been discussed by mormon apologetics.

Church is about having a good feeling. It is no different in the catholic faith. I have heard this from people investigating the catholic church that when they enter the catholic church they feel a spiritual pressence and it feels good. I have also felt this way, when I enter the catholic church. I can feel the pressence of god. Is that also just a ‘warm fuzzie’ and not the holy spirit residing inside the church? I would never equate the holy spirit to a warm fuzzie. And I do believe that most people go to church not just to worship god but also to feel good in doing so. Isn’t that what it is all about?
 
Allweather said:
Well, then, you’re on solid ground. Nevertheless, it is a process. None of us has arrived yet. Heck, it has taken me over 20 years to come to grips with some Catholic things.

God will lead you to where He wants you to be.
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I was going to make this same point. I have seen mormons give up rather easily. They come across a difficult concept on the internet and suddenly they begin to doubt more and more and soon they leave the lds church. Perhaps it happens to catholics also which is one reason one can not post an anti-catholic website on this forum. The deception of a critic can be very powerful.

Religion is never simple. It takes prayer and contemplation to reach understandings.
 
why_me said:
I have been down this road before and it doesn’t mean much. First, your website is antimormon designed to lead people out of the faith. And that in a nutshell would cloud the site.

Also, if you are searching for answers, I would not recommend antimormon sites. I have found that most of these sites do not have a hold on the ‘truth’. And they can twist the information.

I have no idea what ldschat is, however, you can try: www.mormonapologetics.org for some answers from some of the posters. Also, www.fairlds.org also has answers to some of the issues raised in 20 ‘truths’ about Mormonism.

You seem to be very influenced by anti mormon literature. It happens. Good luck in you search for the truth.
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Are you a Mormon whyme?

If so, instead of stating the obvious about that site being anti-Mormon, and posting more links for us to go read, how about just pasting one of the “truths” from the OP’s link, and refuting it in your own words.

I think that is what I would prefer to hear from in a forum such as this, other people’s experiences and understandings of their chosen belief.
 
why_me said:
This is false. There are not a dozen personal accounts of the first vision. Do you have a source to back this up? I know of three accounts said at different times. The lds church uses the official version. I am afraid that you are mistaken in your account. This is what makes me a little fishy about your claims. ´

What exactly don’t members realize? Who wrote the book of mormon? Did JS? was his story true? Who wrote it?
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There are around nine or ten different accounts of the First Vision. The following link attempts to provide a detailed harmony or comparison between the key elements of the different accounts:

eldenwatson.net/harmony.htm

The interesting thing that one observes from this study is that although there are variations among the different accounts, they do not contradict each other on the basic points. They are merely different accounts told to different people at different times, with varying degrees of completeness. If I witnessed a car accident, and told the story to ten different people at ten different times over a period of ten years, with varying degrees of completeness; and those people who heard the story didn’t always write it down verbatim from my mouth, but afterwards related the story in their own words as they recollected it (and sometimes it even passed down through several hands before reaching its final form); those stories are not all going to look identical. But the general principles should be there; and there is.

zerinus
 
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