20 Truths about Mormons

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Are you a Mormon whyme?

If so, instead of stating the obvious about that site being anti-Mormon, and posting more links for us to go read, how about just pasting one of the “truths” from the OP’s link, and refuting it in your own words.

I think that is what I would prefer to hear from in a forum such as this, other people’s experiences and understandings of their chosen belief.
Much is not written on that website and it does take a certain slant toward the lds church. For example about polygamy. What the site doesn’t mention is the personal witnesses that many of these women received about its truthfulness. They have written such testimonies in their own words.

For example: Lucy Walker. When Joseph asked her to be a plural wife, she at first felt repulsed by the idea. But when she went to pray about this principle she ‘received a powerful and irristable testimony of the truth of the marriage covenent called…plural marriage’

Mary Lightner had a similiar experience. When the time came that Joseph offered her plural marriage she was sceptical and did not accept his proposal. She told Joseph that she would not agree until she received a personal witness or testimony of its truthfulness. Later she went to pray for that witness and received a heavenly visitation and agreed to be sealed to Joseph.

Zina Jacobs: ‘When I heard that god had revealed the law of celestial marriage (plural marriage) that we would have the privilege of associating in family relationships in the worlds to come. I searched the scripture and by humble prayer to my heavenly father I obtained a testimony for myself that god had required that order to be established in this church.’

Of course there are more testimonies from other women but the reason why many women entered into plural marriage with Joseph was after receiving a personal testimony that the practice was sanctioned by god after he answered their prayers.

Now this is something that the other website will not tell you. And I do not get the feeling that these decisions depended on a ‘warm fuzzy’ as related by Issac for his own experiences.

The following is one source that I used for the polyandrous wives:

fairlds.org/pubs/polyandry.pdf
 
There are several different accounts of the First Vision. The following link attempts to provide a detailed harmony or comparison between the key elements of the different accounts:

eldenwatson.net/harmony.htm

The interesting thing that one observes from this study is that although there are variations among the different accounts, they do not contradict each other on the basic points. They are merely different accounts told to different people at different times, with varying degrees of completeness. If I witnessed a car accident, and told the story to ten different people at ten different times over a period of ten years, with varying degrees of completeness; and those people who heard the story didn’t always write it down verbatim from my mouth, but afterwards related the story in their own words as they recollected it (and sometimes it even passed down through several hands before reaching its final form); those stories are not all going to look identical. But the general principles should be there; and there is.

zerinus
That seems like a reasonable explanation, Zerinus. That same argument is used to explain the many variations among the four Biblical gospels, Mt, Mk, Lk and Jn. The difference, it seems to me, is that with the gospels, there were hundreds of witnesses, and Jesus wasn’t writing in first person, but rather the gospels were written by eyewitnesses. The Joseph Smith so-called vision was a direct account, was it not? I mean, wasn’t Joseph the only breathing human present? Why would his own account vary over time?

Unless it was because he needed it to vary.
 
That seems like a reasonable explanation, Zerinus. That same argument is used to explain the many variations among the four Biblical gospels, Mt, Mk, Lk and Jn. The difference, it seems to me, is that with the gospels, there were hundreds of witnesses, and Jesus wasn’t writing in first person, but rather the gospels were written by eyewitnesses. The Joseph Smith so-called vision was a direct account, was it not? I mean, wasn’t Joseph the only breathing human present? Why would his own account vary over time?

Unless it was because he needed it to vary.
One explanation given is that Joseph did not consider it to be important at that time. It was not until that he wrote the official version did he take time to write it more exactly. I am sure that if he would have related it over and over again from rote, the critics of JS would not be happy either.
 
Much is not written on that website and it does take a certain slant toward the lds church. For example about polygamy. What the site doesn’t mention is the personal witnesses that many of these women received about its truthfulness. They have written such testimonies in their own words.

For example: Lucy Walker. When Joseph asked her to be a plural wife, she at first felt repulsed by the idea. But when she went to pray about this principle she ‘received a powerful and irristable testimony of the truth of the marriage covenent called…plural marriage’

Mary Lightner had a similiar experience. When the time came that Joseph offered her plural marriage she was sceptical and did not accept his proposal. She told Joseph that she would not agree until she received a personal witness or testimony of its truthfulness. Later she went to pray for that witness and received a heavenly visitation and agreed to be sealed to Joseph.

Zina Jacobs: ‘When I heard that god had revealed the law of celestial marriage (plural marriage) that we would have the privilege of associating in family relationships in the worlds to come. I searched the scripture and by humble prayer to my heavenly father I obtained a testimony for myself that god had required that order to be established in this church.’

Of course there are more testimonies from other women but the reason why many women entered into plural marriage with Joseph was after receiving a personal testimony that the practice was sanctioned by god after he answered their prayers.

Now this is something that the other website will not tell you. And I do not get the feeling that these decisions depended on a ‘warm fuzzy’ as related by Issac for his own experiences.
Well, call me skeptical. There were people in Jonestown who, when offered the killer Koolaide, prayed and were instructed that the thing God wanted them to do was to drink and die. Besides, many of them probably noticed the guards with the rifles who were going to shoot them anyway.

These poor women were within the boundaries of the Mormon apparatus, and were under the domination of a powerful and charismatic leader. Their testimonies about receiving God’s command about becoming Joseph’s bedmates must be taken with a very big grain of salt.

There are many written testimonies of plural wives who grieve the experience.
 
One explanation given is that Joseph did not consider it to be important at that time. It was not until that he wrote the official version did he take time to write it more exactly. I am sure that if he would have related it over and over again from rote, the critics of JS would not be happy either.
Let me understand this… the boy had a vision of Jesus and Heavenly Father. He spoke to them, and they spoke to him. But he “did not consider it to be important at that time.” That just doesn’t have the ring of validity to it. If I had a vision of an angelic being, whether it claimed to be God or Satan or any other creature, I SURE as HECK would consider it to be important.

More likely, the story changed over time because it wasn’t true. As things were needed in order to buttress doctrine and dogma, things were added or modified. That is the far more likely scenario.
 
Well, call me skeptical. There were people in Jonestown who, when offered the killer Koolaide, prayed and were instructed that the thing God wanted them to do was to drink and die. Besides, many of them probably noticed the guards with the rifles who were going to shoot them anyway.

These poor women were within the boundaries of the Mormon apparatus, and were under the domination of a powerful and charismatic leader. Their testimonies about receiving God’s command about becoming Joseph’s bedmates must be taken with a very big grain of salt.

There are many written testimonies of plural wives who grieve the experience.
And I knew that you and others would say such things. But that would not explain their personal testimonies and their sacrifice. One can always devalue a personal experience of another. But no cool aid was offered at the end of Joseph Smith. It was not god’s command but god’s witness that the practice was true. See the difference?

But the point that I was trying to make is about anti sites in general. It is the same for anti catholic sites. They can also bob and weave through quotations to make a point. And yet, much is left out. And I think that you would agree with this. Nothing is that simple. It just bothers me when someone is taking in by those sites. And I feel the same way about catholics who are swayed by anticatholic sites.

I have a catholic mormon background and I feel quite at home in the catholic faith, perhaps more so than in the lds faith right now. But I cannot tolerate the deception of anti sites. It just rubs me the wrong way.
 
Church is about having a good feeling. It is no different in the catholic faith. I have heard this from people investigating the catholic church that when they enter the catholic church they feel a spiritual pressence and it feels good. I have also felt this way, when I enter the catholic church. I can feel the pressence of god. Is that also just a ‘warm fuzzie’ and not the holy spirit residing inside the church? I would never equate the holy spirit to a warm fuzzie. And I do believe that most people go to church not just to worship god but also to feel good in doing so. Isn’t that what it is all about?
God isn’t our personal feel-good machine, but I’m sure you don’t mean it that way. Listen, the “spiritual presence” of God present in the Eucharistic host is just as likely to make a sinner feel convicted of his sin as to make a saint have a warm feeling of happiness. Moreover, all mature people of prayer know about the dry times. Some days God “feels” distant and gone. Other days He seems like He is right next to us. This is probably mostly due to our physical and mental variability… moods and whatnot… and is why we can’t base our faith and doctrine on how we “feel.”
 
I am starting this thread in response to the following link:
trialsofascension.net/mormon.html

After reading much of what is listed there, I went over to ldschat.com in order to see what kind of response I would get. I’ve been a member of the LDS faith all of my life and over the past year began questioning my faith. Still, I have remained a member despite the obvious faults in the church. I never expected to be kicked out of the church, but I have every reason to believe that if I continue in my efforts to discover truth, that will be exactly the case. Within 5 minutes, I became officially banned from ldschat.com for merely asking questions about the church, quoting material directly from LDS-approved literature. Needless to say, I received no answer to those questions. Neither did I receive any explanation for why I was banned against their policy, which states that users can be banned only “after being warned.” I received no such warning.

The purpose of this discussion is not my being banned from ldschat.com, however. I intend that the focus will be on the 20 Truths about Mormonism article. Please keep the discussion polite and I’m tired of being attacked by members of all religions, including my own, which I expect to soon leave of my own will or become excommunicated for my knowledge of it’s origin.
The DNA issue as well as other problems with the Book of Mormon are about as much as you need to know about Mormonism to debunk it. The Native Americans descend from Siberians, not Israelites. People in the early 19th century may have been able to speculate that Native Americans were among the Lost Tribes of Israel. The discoveries made since then show that is not the case. The Book of Mormon is based on the idea of showing the Native Americans their ancestors were Christian. We now know better. I was once a Mormon, but have become Catholic after a 15 year search for the truth about religion. I have become Catholic because I believed the words of Christ found in the New Testament, especially as found in John 6 and Matthew 16: 13-19.
 
And I knew that you and others would say such things. But that would not explain their personal testimonies and their sacrifice. One can always devalue a personal experience of another. But no cool aid was offered at the end of Joseph Smith. It was not god’s command but god’s witness that the practice was true. See the difference?

But the point that I was trying to make is about anti sites in general. It is the same for anti catholic sites. They can also bob and weave through quotations to make a point. And yet, much is left out. And I think that you would agree with this. Nothing is that simple. It just bothers me when someone is taking in by those sites. And I feel the same way about catholics who are swayed by anticatholic sites.

I have a catholic mormon background and I feel quite at home in the catholic faith, perhaps more so than in the lds faith right now. But I cannot tolerate the deception of anti sites. It just rubs me the wrong way.
I tend to agree with you about the anti sites. But what we’re actually talking about here is the difference between True Religion and False Religion. Whether the arguments are tainted by human pride is not open to question: of COURSE they are. We are all prideful beings, and are all subject to pride in the promotion of our religious choices, as we are in our choices of the cars we buy, or the houses we live in.

I tend not to get too much into details in these arguments, because I think we get lost in the details and fail to see the Big Picture. The Big Picture is like this: There is a Church that is historically traceable all the way back in time to when Jesus and his chosen men walked the earth. That Church is the big Daddy Church. All the others are pretending in some manner to be the living branch off that vine, or to be the restorative successor to it, or whatever. The Mormon church is one of those pretenders. There are many of them. Hundreds, thousands even.

To me, common sense points to the validity of the big Daddy over the pretenders, because there in only one big Daddy, but thousands of pretenders. I’m not going to waste my valuable prayer time investigating all the competing claims and scriptural interpretations of all these pretenders in an vain search for the true one. Jesus said: that we may all be one, united in Him, as He is in the Father.
 
The DNA issue as well as other problems with the Book of Mormon are about as much as you need to know about Mormonism to debunk it. The Native Americans descend from Siberians, not Israelites. People in the early 19th century may have been able to speculate that Native Americans were among the Lost Tribes of Israel. The discoveries made since then show that is not the case. The Book of Mormon is based on the idea of showing the Native Americans their ancestors were Christian. We now know better. I was once a Mormon, but have become Catholic after a 15 year search for the truth about religion. I have become Catholic because I believed the words of Christ found in the New Testament, especially as found in John 6 and Matthew 16: 13-19.
If you were a mormon then you would know that there have been two theories about the people who the book of mormon mentions. One is the hemispheric model (which would spread the bom people across the north and south hemisphere) and the other is the limited georgraphical model (which would center the people in Mesoamerica). Both have been mentioned in church leadership and in intellectual circles. And I have seen paintings which depict mesoamerica. There are no teepees mentioned in the book of mormon.

The dna issue is an interesting issue but I would have to say that the jury is still out. FAIRlds has some articles about it and others have offered speculations about it. I don’t think that it has the punch that it used to have. Of course, those who wish to leave the faith can seize on this issue but is science always trustworthy?

If so, I suppose that we all come from apes, at least science can make such a claim. 👍
 
God isn’t our personal feel-good machine, but I’m sure you don’t mean it that way. Listen, the “spiritual presence” of God present in the Eucharistic host is just as likely to make a sinner feel convicted of his sin as to make a saint have a warm feeling of happiness. Moreover, all mature people of prayer know about the dry times. Some days God “feels” distant and gone. Other days He seems like He is right next to us. This is probably mostly due to our physical and mental variability… moods and whatnot… and is why we can’t base our faith and doctrine on how we “feel.”
After confession the priest told me that I should feel happy and free because my sins have been washed away. No reason to feel convicted when the eucharist is taken.

My problem with Isaac is that he equates such good feelings to ‘warm fuzzies’ which is not true. I have felt the spirit pressence in the catholic church and I do not want to believe that such a feeling is a ‘warm fuzzie’ but the spirit of god dwelling in his house.
 
If you were a mormon then you would know that there have been two theories about the people who the book of mormon mentions. One is the hemispheric model (which would spread the bom people across the north and south hemisphere) and the other is the limited georgraphical model (which would center the people in Mesoamerica). Both have been mentioned in church leadership and in intellectual circles. And I have seen paintings which depict mesoamerica. There are no teepees mentioned in the book of mormon.

The dna issue is an interesting issue but I would have to say that the jury is still out. FAIRlds has some articles about it and others have offered speculations about it. I don’t think that it has the punch that it used to have. Of course, those who wish to leave the faith can seize on this issue but is science always trustworthy?

If so, I suppose that we all come from apes, at least science can make such a claim. 👍
The Limited Geograpical theory had to be invented when the old idea was proven impossible. Unfortunately, Joseph Smith and other early leaders did not teach anything about a Limited Geographic model and the Doctrine and Covenants sends Oliver Cowdrey and some other folks to Lamanites who just happened to be living in teepees. So the Mormon God told Joseph Smith that those Indians living in teepees were indeed Lamanites. That destroys any belief in a Limited Geographic Theory for me. This article debunks the LGT idea pretty well, relying on statements of authoritative church leaders rather than FARMS apologists:

irr.org/MIT/Lamanites-DNA-Book-of-Mormon.html
 
The Limited Geograpical theory had to be invented when the old idea was proven impossible. Unfortunately, Joseph Smith and other early leaders did not teach anything about a Limited Geographic model and the Doctrine and Covenants sends Oliver Cowdrey and some other folks to Lamanites who just happened to be living in teepees. So the Mormon God told Joseph Smith that those Indians living in teepees were indeed Lamanites. That destroys any belief in a Limited Geographic Theory for me. This article debunks the LGT idea pretty well, relying on statements of authoritative church leaders rather than FARMS apologists:

irr.org/MIT/Lamanites-DNA-Book-of-Mormon.html
Actually, the limited geographical model goes back a long way. As I said, it was all speculation but the hemispheric model had more weight. But I do recall the limited model being discussed many years ago. I can try to look it up.

Not to mention just how much dna would be left if a small population would mingle with a much larger population. This is being discussed also. Actually the indians were principle ancestors of of the lamanites. But again the question remains: what is a principle ancestor. And this is found in the introduction written in 1981 and not in the book of mormon. As you have read the book of mormon there is nothing indianish about it. The book of mormon people lived in developed cities and communities. They worshipped in buildings. Not very indianish at all.

But yes, the hemispheric model was the established model but it was not doctrine. And to tell you the truth, I always had this idea that the main people were from mesoamerica and branched out to other locations. Thus, the american indian. But the dna thing is not an open and shut deal. And science is just science. We should not pick and choose what science we put our faith in.

Either we come from monkeys or we don’t. But science says we do.
 
Actually, the limited geographical model goes back a long way. As I said, it was all speculation but the hemispheric model had more weight. But I do recall the limited model being discussed many years ago. I can try to look it up.

Not to mention just how much dna would be left if a small population would mingle with a much larger population. This is being discussed also. Actually the indians were principle ancestors of of the lamanites. But again the question remains: what is a principle ancestor. And this is found in the introduction written in 1981 and not in the book of mormon. As you have read the book of mormon there is nothing indianish about it. The book of mormon people lived in developed cities and communities. They worshipped in buildings. Not very indianish at all.

But yes, the hemispheric model was the established model but it was not doctrine. And to tell you the truth, I always had this idea that the main people were from mesoamerica and branched out to other locations. Thus, the american indian. But the dna thing is not an open and shut deal. And science is just science. We should not pick and choose what science we put our faith in.

Either we come from monkeys or we don’t. But science says we do.
Doesn’t it make sense to you that a “principle ancestor” would have left some mtDNA around? And the reality is the Book of Mormon never discusses any people outside of the groups which came from the Middle East. It’s really a stretch to try to save Mormonism by throwing in speculation about people the Book of Mormon never mentions. It makes more sense to me to rely on the authority of the Catholic Church which can trace its authority back to the apostles, rather than the visions of Joseph Smith and his questionable Book of Mormon. This is especially so when Mormonism denies the clearly Biblical doctrine of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. I respect the Mormon lifestyle and really loved the social aspects of Mormonism, but the teachings seem to rely too much on the truth of the Book of Mormon for the LDS Church to be credible.
 
Doesn’t it make sense to you that a “principle ancestor” would have left some mtDNA around?
From FAIRLDS:
*HYPOTHESIZED LOCATIONS OF BOOK OF MORMON LANDS. Two issues merit consideration in relation to possible external correlations of Book of Mormon geography. What is the official position of the Church, and what are the pervading opinions of its members?

In early Church history, the most common opinion among members and Church leaders was that Book of Mormon lands encompassed all of North and South America, although at least one more limited alternative view was also held for a time by some. The official position of the Church is that the events narrated in the Book of Mormon occurred somewhere in the Americas, but that the specific location has not been revealed. This position applies both to internal geographies and to external correlations. No internal geography has yet been proposed or approved by the Church, and none of the internal or external geographies proposed by individual members (including that proposed above) has received approval. Efforts in that direction by members are neither encouraged nor discouraged. In the words of John A. Widtsoe, an apostle, “All such studies are legitimate, but the conclusions drawn from them, though they may be correct, must at the best be held as intelligent conjectures” (Vol. 3, p. 93).

Three statements sometimes attributed to the Prophet Joseph Smith are often cited as evidence of an official Church position. An 1836 statement asserts that “Lehi and his company…landed on the continent of South America, in Chili [sic ], thirty degrees, south latitude” (Richards, Little, p. 272). This view was accepted by Orson Pratt and printed in the footnotes to the 1879 edition of the Book of Mormon, but insufficient evidence exists to clearly attribute it to Joseph Smith (“Did Lehi Land in Chili [sic]?”; cf. Roberts, Vol. 3, pp. 501–503, and Widtsoe, Vol. 3, pp. 93–98).

In 1842 an editorial in the Church newspaper claimed that “Lehi…landed a little south of the Isthmus of Darien [Panama]” (T&S 3 [Sept. 15, 1842]:921–22). This would move the location of Lehi´s landing some 3,000 miles north of the proposed site in Chile. Although Joseph Smith had assumed editorial responsibility for the paper by this time, it is not known whether this statement originated with him or even represented his views. Two weeks later, another editorial appeared in the Times and Seasons that, in effect, constituted a book review of Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas and Yucatan, by John Lloyd Stephens. This was the first accessible book in English containing detailed descriptions and drawings of ancient Mayan ruins. Excerpts from it were included in the Times and Seasons, along with the comment that “it will not be a bad plan to compare Mr. Stephens´ ruined cities with those in the Book of Mormon: light cleaves to light, and facts are supported by facts. The truth injures no one” (T&S 3 [Oct. 1, 1842]:927).

In statements since then, Church leaders have generally declined to give any opinion on issues of Book of Mormon geography. When asked to review a map showing the supposed landing place of Lehi´s company, President Joseph F. Smith declared that the “Lord had not yet revealed it” (Cannon, p. 160 n.). In 1929, Anthony W. Ivins, counselor in the First Presidency, added, “There has never been anything yet set forth that definitely settles that question [of Book of Mormon geography]…. We are just waiting until we discover the truth” (CR, Apr. 1929, p. 16). While the Church has not taken an official position with regard to location of geographical places, the authorities do not discourage private efforts to deal with the subject (Cannon).

The unidentified Times and Seasons editorialist seems to have favored modern Central America as the setting for Book of Mormon events. As noted, recent geographies by some Church members promote this identification, but others consider upstate New York or South America the correct setting. Considerable diversity of opinion remains among Church members regarding Book of Mormon geography; however, most students of the problem agree that the hundreds of geographical references in the Book of Mormon are remarkably consistent—even if the students cannot always agree upon precise locations.

JOHN E. CLARK *
The debate goes back a long way and much was speculation. There are quotations from previous general authorities about this from a long time ago. Assumptions are never doctrine.
 
From FAIRLDS:
*HYPOTHESIZED LOCATIONS OF BOOK OF MORMON LANDS. Two issues merit consideration in relation to possible external correlations of Book of Mormon geography. What is the official position of the Church, and what are the pervading opinions of its members?

In early Church history, the most common opinion among members and Church leaders was that Book of Mormon lands encompassed all of North and South America, although at least one more limited alternative view was also held for a time by some. The official position of the Church is that the events narrated in the Book of Mormon occurred somewhere in the Americas, but that the specific location has not been revealed. This position applies both to internal geographies and to external correlations. No internal geography has yet been proposed or approved by the Church, and none of the internal or external geographies proposed by individual members (including that proposed above) has received approval. Efforts in that direction by members are neither encouraged nor discouraged. In the words of John A. Widtsoe, an apostle, “All such studies are legitimate, but the conclusions drawn from them, though they may be correct, must at the best be held as intelligent conjectures” (Vol. 3, p. 93).

Three statements sometimes attributed to the Prophet Joseph Smith are often cited as evidence of an official Church position. An 1836 statement asserts that “Lehi and his company…landed on the continent of South America, in Chili [sic ], thirty degrees, south latitude” (Richards, Little, p. 272). This view was accepted by Orson Pratt and printed in the footnotes to the 1879 edition of the Book of Mormon, but insufficient evidence exists to clearly attribute it to Joseph Smith (“Did Lehi Land in Chili [sic]?”; cf. Roberts, Vol. 3, pp. 501–503, and Widtsoe, Vol. 3, pp. 93–98).

In 1842 an editorial in the Church newspaper claimed that “Lehi…landed a little south of the Isthmus of Darien [Panama]” (T&S 3 [Sept. 15, 1842]:921–22). This would move the location of Lehi´s landing some 3,000 miles north of the proposed site in Chile. Although Joseph Smith had assumed editorial responsibility for the paper by this time, it is not known whether this statement originated with him or even represented his views. Two weeks later, another editorial appeared in the Times and Seasons that, in effect, constituted a book review of Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas and Yucatan, by John Lloyd Stephens. This was the first accessible book in English containing detailed descriptions and drawings of ancient Mayan ruins. Excerpts from it were included in the Times and Seasons, along with the comment that “it will not be a bad plan to compare Mr. Stephens´ ruined cities with those in the Book of Mormon: light cleaves to light, and facts are supported by facts. The truth injures no one” (T&S 3 [Oct. 1, 1842]:927).

In statements since then, Church leaders have generally declined to give any opinion on issues of Book of Mormon geography. When asked to review a map showing the supposed landing place of Lehi´s company, President Joseph F. Smith declared that the “Lord had not yet revealed it” (Cannon, p. 160 n.). In 1929, Anthony W. Ivins, counselor in the First Presidency, added, “There has never been anything yet set forth that definitely settles that question [of Book of Mormon geography]…. We are just waiting until we discover the truth” (CR, Apr. 1929, p. 16). While the Church has not taken an official position with regard to location of geographical places, the authorities do not discourage private efforts to deal with the subject (Cannon).

The unidentified Times and Seasons editorialist seems to have favored modern Central America as the setting for Book of Mormon events. As noted, recent geographies by some Church members promote this identification, but others consider upstate New York or South America the correct setting. Considerable diversity of opinion remains among Church members regarding Book of Mormon geography; however, most students of the problem agree that the hundreds of geographical references in the Book of Mormon are remarkably consistent—even if the students cannot always agree upon precise locations.

JOHN E. CLARK *
The debate goes back a long way and much was speculation. There are quotations from previous general authorities about this from a long time ago. Assumptions are never doctrine.
None of this answers the question of whether or not a “principle ancestor” would have transmitted some mtDNA to descendents. I can’t trust my eternal salvation on a book brought by an angel with no evidence for its claims. I’ll put my faith in Jesus and the Catholic Church he started – it would seem to have a much better chance of leading me to God than Mormonism does.
 
Doesn’t it make sense to you that a “principle ancestor” would have left some mtDNA around?
The ‘principal ancestor’ was written into the introduction in the 1981 edition of the book of mormon. The intro is not doctrine. I don’t know how much mtDNA would be left if there were mixings of DNA. But I do know that studies are being made about all this and it will all come out in the wash.
 
I’m not much on the BoM, have not read it completely, and cannot seem to force myself to stay awake long enough to plod through it. What I know about it, I’ve picked up from other people. I keep wondering what difference it makes whether the American indians and polynesians came from China or Israel. The Mormons must have it their way, otherwise their entire religion falls apart. Of course, it falls apart because of other outlandish claims, such as the Great Apostasy, but that is another issue.

It seems to me that most of the objectionable theological innovations of Mormonism came not from the BoM but from revelations supposedly visited upon Joseph Smith and other Mormon Great Men. Left to itself, the BoM seems fairly Christian, though still fanciful, given such claims therein as that Eden was in Missouri, and that the BoM people lived in buildings none of which can be found a trace of a mere 1400 years later.

Simon Southerton says in his book, Losing A Lost Tribe it isn’t JUST the dna that works against the BoM. It is several scientific/anthropological/linguistic/archaeological research avenues that ALL point away from the BoM.

If the BoM came telling us nothing different from what orthodox Catholicism has taught for 2 millenia, and if Joseph Smith and his fellow Mormon Great Men never taught anything that deviated from orthodoxy, and if they were united with the Holy Father in Rome, then I could see the Mormon phenomenon as something worthy of reading about. But, since it came teaching heresy and schism, adultery and fornication, it simply cannot be true.
 
Let me try and direct this conversation in a little bit of a new or more focused direction. I’d rather have it stand out a bit from other threads than to go through the same arguments. If we can stick to a discussion on the original topic it would be nice. I don’t want to focus so much on whether or not Mormonism or Catholicism or any other religion is true because that tends to bring out offense and backlashing and a bit of nail-biting.

So here is what I propose. The discussion is based on a website (trialsofascension.net/mormon.html). I would rather see short quotations from the article and evidence from other resources as to the accuracy of the statements. In this way, we will be discussing no so much whether or not the church is true, but rather what is true about the church’s origins and doctrines, both past and present. Try to keep to topics within the 20 Truths and related items listed:

Introduction
1. Book of Abraham
2. Kinderhook Plates
3. Plagiarism
4. Polygamy
5. Emotionality
6. Changing Doctrine
7. False Prophecies
8. Lying for the Lord
9. Treasure Hunt
10. Blood Atonement
11. Vain Ambitions
12. Defections
13. BOM Changes
14. BOM Population
15. Lamanite DNA
16. Critics Squelched
17. Black Prejudice
18. Nephi or Moroni?
19. Archeology
20. First Vision
Observations
My Story
Resources

Again, this is not so much about whether the church is true, but rather what is true about it’s history.
 
I called you on the polygamy and the first vision. I listed quotations from polygamous wives both whom were married to other men and from one that was not. They all received private testimonies of plural marriage truthfulness. If you have a beef, you will need to take it up with heavenly father.

I have already said that there weren’t a dozen versions for the first vision and zenius gave an explanation.

Now about plagarism. The view of the hebrews was around at JS’s time and the early saints to my knowledge knew of the book. It made no impact. This has been dealt with by lds apologists.

Now there are two main versions out there and none covers the view of the hebrews First Dan Vogel’s account as written in his book: Joseph Smith, the making of a prophet and Dale Broadhurst’s account. Both contradict the other because Dale has Sidney being the chief author and Dan has JS as author without Rigdon. They just had a dialogue on the critic mormonsite: www.mormondiscussions.com It is located in the celestial forum. Go there and you can’t miss it.

You can take your pick from these two arguments. But you can’t choose both. Dan has JS doing some automatic writing without a manuscript and dale has sidney writing it from the oberlin manuscript.

However, your site has JS doing some pretty heavy research and I am afraid that this was quite impossible at that time. He was not known to have book in hand nor was he seen in the library.

Your site needs to bone up on more info. However, to an untrained eye it does look good.

So that is three things that have been addressed.
 
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