That’s Mormons for you – the apologists have dealt with the arguments.
Ah…excuse me for asking but…is this a catholic apologetic site? It seems to me that catholic apologetics have all the answers too. Or many of them. How about the ask the apologist site?
Joseph already had conceived of the ideas for the Book of Mormon long before he received the supposed plates. He originally wrote (or translated the book) through the help of Martin Harris and desired that the book be sent into Canada in order to find a potential buyer of the copyright. When no buyers were available, he proceeded to use the book as a more religious tool in order to get converts to his new religion. His family was in such a condition that they had to sell copies of the book in order to buy food.
If Joseph cannot tell which revelations are of God and which are of men or devils, why should I trust him or any other man who claims to be a prophet? Of course it isn’t in church literature. The brethren didn’t want potential converts to believe their prophet could be led astray.
I’m sorry, but to simply say the apologists have dealt with this or that about the Book of Mormon doesn’t answer the critics. The apologists in my opinion come up with pseudo answers such as horses are really deer or tapirs. And they still haven’t verified a single place in the Americas which would qualify as the location for the Nephites or Lamanites. The best they can say is that people lived there and big buildings are there. None of the writings which have been translated give any indication that anything in the Americas has anything to do with Christianity or ancient Israelis. So you see the apologists don’t have any real answers – the best they can do is speculate about places and people which haven’t been shown to have existed.Ah…excuse me for asking but…is this a catholic apologetic site? It seems to me that catholic apologetics have all the answers too. Or many of them. How about the ask the apologist site?
Strange what a wall creates.
isn’t the introduction by nature a statement by the first presidency? placed in a book of scripture? are you implying that it is false doctrine?
I am referring to his neighbors and what they said about him. This is why when the book of mormon came out, many sought elsewhere for the source. Please take a look at the books owned by JS before the book of mormon came out. What do you see? Not much. Most were owned after the publication of the book of mormon. Do you see it? But he did own a bible and a book of arithmatic. Not much of a library there to be sure before the book of mormon.
...The following year the editor penned a tribute on the eightieth birthday of David Whitmer, who “with no regrets for the past” still “reiterates that he saw the glory of the angel.”
This is the critical issue of the life of David Whitmer. During fifty years in non-Mormon society, he insisted with the fervor of his youth that he knew that the Book of Mormon was divinely revealed. Relatively few people in Richmond could wholly accept such testimony, but none doubted his intelligence or complete honesty. (Ibid., 74.)**You are wasting your time debating with christianly about these things. He believes in driving on the highway with his eyes closed—until he ends in a mighty crashes, that is! I have already discussed all of these things with him (and others) lots of times; but he just turns a blind eye to it, and like a broken record repeats the same questions over and over again. If DNA analysis is a reliable test of these things, then all mankind’s DNA should be traceable to one man, Noah. According to Bible chronology, Noah lived approximately 4,000 years ago. Lehi immigrated to America 2,600 years ago. That means that from Noah until today is less than double the length of time of from Lehi until today. So if the DNA profiles of modern day descendents of Lehi should be genetically traceable to that of the ancient Jews (or indicate descent from them), then all mankind’s DNA should equally easily indicate direct descent from Noah. If such evidence exists, where is it? Why don’t they go and tell it to all those archaeologists and anthropologists who believe that mankind descended through millions of years of evolution from apes? If it was possible to prove conclusively form DNA analysis that all mankind descended from one man Noah 4,000 years ago, that would be sufficient to debunk the Darwinian theory of Evolution forever. Well, if these guys are so smart, and can prove that, why don’t they do it? The truth is that these folks don’t really believe in the Bible any more than they believe in the Book of Mormon; and it is of no interest to them that their arguments, if valid, would equally prove the Bible to be false.
You brought up what I wanted to say about DNA and the bible. I know that the born again christians don’t seem to get the connection when they mention dna. DNA negates their own faith. Such is science.
You still have not addressed what his own mother said about his active imagination as a child. Please include quotations regarding what his neighbors said. That’s not a hard thing to do.
Exactly. Terrible penmanship. This is exactly why he had a great deal of help from others in publishing the Book of Mormon. Take from that what you want. I can’t say I’m certain Joseph Smith, Jun. didn’t translate the book. It’s very well possible that he might have come into possession of some plates and as a man who is not known for reading much, he translated a dead and foreign language he’d never come a cross before into well-written English.
You seem to call them anti-sites only because you do not agree with the information presented. 20 Concerns includes the Apologist responses to the information presented. If you actually look at my references, I’m quoting David Whitmer, Lucy Mack Smith, Brigham Young, and other notable early Mormons.
Everybody “has an agenda” so I don’t see what you’re trying to get at by saying that. Even if David Whitmer was convinced about those things and honest in his beliefs, he left the church. Perhaps the Book of Mormon was divinely revealed. People have said the same thing of Lord of the Rings or Narnia and they’re both works of fiction/fantasy.
that’s just silly. of course we believe in the bible. we also see that it isn’t historically anachronistic nor does it require belief in anything proven wrong. the BoM is full of things that we know didn’t exist. we know no one had metal swords or armor back then. we know they didn’t have linens or herds and flocks of European animals. they didn’t ride into battle on chariots either. The BoM does NOT have any of the things that we know existed in the americas then. where are the llamas and guinea pigs? the monkeys? what about corn that central to all pre-colombian cultures? what about the obsidian weapons? we don’t see these things in the BoM.
By penmanship, I meant grammar and very poor writing style. You will need to give me a theory as to who helped him write it. And reliable witnesses to further your cause. As I said, this is old stuff. The new stuff is from mormon critic Dan Vogel and his ‘automatic’ writing theory. He gets into a good debate with the Spauldingists on Mormondiscussion.com in the celestial forum. No one ever saw a manuscript of the book of mormon if Joseph was helped in writing the book. Nor did they hear paper crumpling nor were rough drafts discovered. Think of how many pages of paper it would take to write that book, with rough drafts etc.
Children have active imaginations. And we should thank god for it. But that does not make a writer nor does it make a great story teller. But it does show the signs of a normal child.
I never said Lucy was a con artist. I do not believe she was. Perhaps she got some facts mixed up in her old age. I know about that sort of thing better than most people. I have a terrible memory. I have to write most things down or else I’ll forget them. I’m especially terrible with names. I had a grandfather who died in such a state that he could not recall how to eat food, let alone any knowledge of religious convictions and so forth. My grandmother and her 13 children all relate different accounts regarding my grandparents. Must I be constrained to believe the account of my grandmother or any particular account of her various children? How am I to know which parts are true? A court of law must deal with these types of questions daily. My own bishop and stake president are both lawyers and can testify to that effect. How, then, must I go about discerning truth about Mormonism? I believe that it would only be right to read as many accounts as possible, positive or negative, and come to a conclusion based on both my feeling and on what makes sense.
Indeed. However, Lucy did say that her son WAS a good story teller. Perhaps he had terrible penmanship. That is why he had other men do the writing for him, as has well been documented by all historians, whether for or against the church.
And that is all that we all must do, my friend. And yet, after all the posts I have made, I am still an ‘new member’ on this forum and you are a ‘regular member’. Why? Because people are still sitting in judgement of me from the posts I made to you. And perhaps you are more accepted.