20 Truths about Mormons

[Allweather]

I’m not offended. I tend to agree with a lot of what you said. Still, I believe that anyone who accepts Christ is a Christian - even if they have it all screwed up.

“Accept Christ” could mean an awful lot of things. This is why we need an authoritative Church to define what true acceptance is.

There is one true Church, and there are thousands of pretenders. Each of these pretenders has its own definition. The Mormons version wasn’t born until spring of 1830, right around the same time that many other pretenders were also springing up in America.

The true Church preexisted the pretenders by nearly two thousand years. It still sets the standard by which all the pretenders are measured.

 

[isaac.madsen]

The true Church preexisted the pretenders by nearly two thousand years. It still sets the standard by which all the pretenders are measured.

Indeed, so the true question is whether that Church exists today in its original form. I feel that it is not so, but I can only vouch for the words of a religion I no longer believe in, so I believe understanding is subjective. If I want to gain true knowledge, I need to see the bigger picture, and that may take years - likely enough years that it won’t happen in this lifetime. I’m not so much worried about my salvation though. Everyone knows basic right from wrong. It is only in choosing the wrong that so many become confused because they justify their sins over and over. Perhaps I have been trained up in a sinful environment, but one that has been justified for so many years that it no longer appears to the Mormon mind as sinful. I am lucky enough to know how to question things and seek for answers. That doesn’t mean I always know how to find them though.

 

[deb1024]

I’m not offended. I tend to agree with a lot of what you said. Still, I believe that anyone who accepts Christ is a Christian - even if they have it all screwed up.

Accepting Christ is a start. Now you need to decide on what direction to go. You need a church, a place to worship God and grow closer to Christ. There are so many churches and so many denomination. Where do you find the truth, your church home?

What I would suggest is first read some of the writings of the
earliest Christians, those who were taught by the apostles themselves or by those who were taught by the apostles. Then you would have an idea of what Christianity was meant to be.

I can suggest 2 books. The Faith of the Early fathers by Jurgans, this is a 3 volume set, the first volume contains the earliest writers. The other Book is Four Witnesses The early Church in her own words, by Rob Bennett.

Jurgans’ book is a collection of theological and historical passages from the Christian writings. Bennett’s book is the same but it is an easier read the way he presents the quotations with historical back round and explanations.

After doing a little research it is easier to see which church teaches Christianity as taught by Jesus Christ to his Apostles.

God bless you on your journey, I have been where you are.

 

[christianley]

Indeed, so the true question is whether that Church exists today in its original form. I feel that it is not so, but I can only vouch for the words of a religion I no longer believe in, so I believe understanding is subjective. If I want to gain true knowledge, I need to see the bigger picture, and that may take years - likely enough years that it won’t happen in this lifetime. I’m not so much worried about my salvation though. Everyone knows basic right from wrong. It is only in choosing the wrong that so many become confused because they justify their sins over and over. Perhaps I have been trained up in a sinful environment, but one that has been justified for so many years that it no longer appears to the Mormon mind as sinful. I am lucky enough to know how to question things and seek for answers. That doesn’t mean I always know how to find them though.

Are you attending any church right now?

 

[thomasf]

I’m not so much worried about my salvation though. Everyone knows basic right from wrong. QUOTE]

The problem is, salvation isn’t a matter of knowing basic right from wrong.

 

[isaac.madsen]

isaac.madsen;2042087:

I’m not so much worried about my salvation though. Everyone knows basic right from wrong. QUOTE]

The problem is, salvation isn’t a matter of knowing basic right from wrong.

Haha. Yes, true… that’s not what I intended to imply by what I said. Salvation comes through Christ’s atonement. Now that subject is an entirely separate argument. I guess the easiest way to say it is salvation comes depending on what you do with that knowledge of right and wrong AND whether or not you accept Christ and apply his atonement through repentance. Now there are a boatload of words in there that could take hours to sort through, but I think most Christians would agree that’s the basic idea of it all. Correct me if I’m wrong.

 

[GrammasRose]

I have been to both of these website, and they were both very enlightening. I think it ought to be known that while I do not believe in the church, I still attend regularly with my family. Perhaps it is only out of the tiniest hope that somebody will eventually prove all of these historical facts false, but so far none have been able to do so. I am very well aware and have felt the feeling that Mormons tend to call “the Holy Ghost” or “the spirit.” I am convinced, however, that contrary to what I have been raised to believe, members of the LDS faith are not the only ones capable of having those feelings on a regular basis. I also do not believe that they necessarily speak of truth because as I have witnessed, “the spirit” can testify of contradicting ideas. One day I’ll feel extremely good about the church and therefore I must apparently know it is true. Another day, I’ll feel just as strongly that I must leave the church.

What you are feeling is normal for anyone who has had to leave the church. Know that been there done that.

 

[GrammasRose]

Well, call me skeptical. There were people in Jonestown who, when offered the killer Koolaide, prayed and were instructed that the thing God wanted them to do was to drink and die. Besides, many of them probably noticed the guards with the rifles who were going to shoot them anyway.

These poor women were within the boundaries of the Mormon apparatus, and were under the domination of a powerful and charismatic leader. Their testimonies about receiving God’s command about becoming Joseph’s bedmates must be taken with a very big grain of salt.

There are many written testimonies of plural wives who grieve the experience.

Not to mention Joseph’s Smiths own wife frowned on it. The original wife that is.

 

[why_me]

Like I said, it was the manner in which Joseph “received revelation” - he puts a stone in a hat, sticks his face in the hat, and by this act of wizardry sees “spiritual light” that reveals a translated manuscript of the Book of Mormon letter by painstaking letter. Seems to me the guy was just putting his head in a hat just for show and telling the story he had imagined up since he was a small child. Evidence shows that he had this stone long before the supposed time and place he received the said plates and urim and thummim (the stone) and such like articles. I find it all disconcerting, but perhaps that’s just me?

Actually Isaac, the hat story is very faith promoting. Think about it. I believe that you believe that JS wrote the book of mormon. Why would he take so much trouble to write the book of mormon, and they make up a hat story is convince people what he wrote was true? It doesn’t make sense. And likewise, if sidney rigdon wrote the book and had Joseph Smith bring ‘forth’ the book, why would he have JS put his head in a hat and risk having his work laughed at? difficult to understand.

And if this is the case, I can only assume that JS’s story is perhaps true. Would you believe a speaking bush? That happened in the bible. Would you believe that god would create fire and walk between the fire to seal a convenant as he did in the bible after asking for sacrificed animals? He did that.

And Isaac, why would JS make up such a hat story after spending so much time writing the book. My gosh, what a idiot he must have been to do such a thing, if he wrote the book. No, my friend, it doesn’t make sense. Think about it.

 

[why_me]

Not to mention Joseph’s Smiths own wife frowned on it. The original wife that is.

However, although his wife frowned upon it, she never denied her husband’s calling as prophet, nor did she deny the book of mormon. Isn’t that interesting.

And although Allweather loves comparing Joseph Smith to David Koresh or Jim Jones, the last time I read how Joseph Smith was murdered he took none of his flock with him except his brother Hyrum who wanted to go to support his brother Joseph and John Taylor another willing volunteer. JS saved the lds community by sacrificing himself. He could have avoided death by having a mormon defense squad go with him. But he didn’t and he knew that his life was in danger. Do you see the difference?

 

[Allweather]

Indeed, so the true question is whether that Church exists today in its original form.

Well, the Church has grown, and in its hierarchal structure “evolved” over the centuries, so we shouldn’t expect the Church of the 1st century to look identical to what we find in Cathlicism today. However, by looking back at the history, such as by reading the early Church Fathers for example, we can clearly see that the Church of the 1st century was Catholic, that they had the Eucharist, and liturgical worship very similar, almost identical in fact, to what we have today. They had bishops and a Pope (though they didn’t yet call him that), and priests and deacons. They met together to deal with ecclesiastical problems, just as they do today. You can know that the Catholic Church of the 21st century is the successor of the Church that Jesus established.

If I want to gain true knowledge, I need to see the bigger picture, and that may take years - likely enough years that it won’t happen in this lifetime.

It shouldn’t take that long. For me, it has boiled down to submission and obedience. I can barely “understand” anything, let alone God, or His Church. I have satisfied myself that the Catholic Church is the one that Jesus established, and so now it has become my duty to submit to its authority, and obey its teachings, even the ones I don’t “understand.”

 

[Allweather]

However, although his wife frowned upon it, she never denied her husband’s calling as prophet, nor did she deny the book of mormon. Isn’t that interesting.

We shouldn’t have expected her to deny Joseph’s claim to be a prophet, or claims about the BoM. After all, her own “career” was heavily invested in the Mormon church. I’m speaking only from “common sense” here as I know very little about Emma. I’ve got a book, Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith on my desk that is in line to be read, but I’ve not yet had time for it.

And although Allweather loves comparing Joseph Smith to David Koresh or Jim Jones, the last time I read how Joseph Smith was murdered he took none of his flock with him except his brother Hyrum who wanted to go to support his brother Joseph and John Taylor another willing volunteer. JS saved the lds community by sacrificing himself. He could have avoided death by having a mormon defense squad go with him. But he didn’t and he knew that his life was in danger. Do you see the difference?

I think it is interesting how you phrase this, especially the part I emphasized. I watch BYU Channel quite a bit, and I’ve often viewed programs there, that wax long and poetic about the sacrificial nature of Joseph’s life. Long before I knew very much about Mormonism, I got the impression from watching these types of programs that Mormons see JS as a sort of Christ figure, and I remember asking several Mormons about this. But look: Koresh and Jones went down with their flocks. Joseph Smith didn’t because he was incarcerated away from them. He did send a written message pleading for help from the flock, help that wasn’t forthcoming. I don’t doubt for a moment that, if Smith had been under seige back at the Mormon HQ, he’d have had no problem having the saints accompany him to the Celestial Kingdom.

 

[Allweather]

Actually Isaac, the hat story is very faith promoting. Think about it. I believe that you believe that JS wrote the book of mormon. Why would he take so much trouble to write the book of mormon, and they make up a hat story is convince people what he wrote was true? It doesn’t make sense. And likewise, if sidney rigdon wrote the book and had Joseph Smith bring ‘forth’ the book, why would he have JS put his head in a hat and risk having his work laughed at? difficult to understand.

And if this is the case, I can only assume that JS’s story is perhaps true. Would you believe a speaking bush? That happened in the bible. Would you believe that god would create fire and walk between the fire to seal a convenant as he did in the bible after asking for sacrificed animals? He did that.

And Isaac, why would JS make up such a hat story after spending so much time writing the book. My gosh, what a idiot he must have been to do such a thing, if he wrote the book. No, my friend, it doesn’t make sense. Think about it.

It’s all about entertainment. Joseph Smith was writing a book to be sold to make money. Sometimes I think the only people who believe that Joseph Smith was a little farm bumpkin are the Mormons. He was clever, brilliant. He had a fine imagination, an amazing memory, probably had a type of photographic memory. He was probably one who could read something and never have to re-read it, but could remember every word thereafter, forever. He was physically attractive. He was tall. He had a commanding presence, one which made people around him want to listen to him and follow him. A natural leader. These are only a few of the natural qualities that Joseph Smith possessed which explain his success in writing a book of fiction, and thereupon founding a religion using it as source material.

 

[isaac.madsen]

For me, it has boiled down to submission and obedience. I can barely “understand” anything, let alone God, or His Church. I have satisfied myself that the Catholic Church is the one that Jesus established, and so now it has become my duty to submit to its authority, and obey its teachings, even the ones I don’t “understand.”

Submission… what a nice choice of wording. The same word is used regarding slavery and Satan. I can submit and obey anything, but that doesn’t make it true or right. Perhaps you are “satisfied” with what you have come to believe, but I am not satisfied with the religion of my birth, nor am I satisfied with Catholicism from what I’ve seen thusfar. I don’t mean any of this with malice or ill will. I’m just stating it how I see it.

 

[why_me]

We shouldn’t have expected her to deny Joseph’s claim to be a prophet, or claims about the BoM. After all, her own “career” was heavily invested in the Mormon church. I’m speaking only from “common sense” here as I know very little about Emma. I’ve got a book, Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith on my desk that is in line to be read, but I’ve not yet had time for it.

Emma was not heavily invested in the mormon church. There was a dispute about property but outside of that, she had no investment in the mormon church once Joseph was murdered. In fact, she married a non-member. When Brigham was disignated prophet, this was the time for emma to come out and claim its falsehood. But she didn’t. And that says quite a bit.

 

[why_me]

It’s all about entertainment. Joseph Smith was writing a book to be sold to make money.

Why the secret? One does not make money by writing a book claiming that it is from god. One makes money by writing a novel. See the difference. Joseph made no money from this book. What to do?

 

[isaac.madsen]

I met with my bishop a few minutes ago and we had a fine discussion. I told him a few of my issues with the temple and he ended up turning the conversation a little. He said, “I don’t think a few handshakes or money-changing are really the issue here.”

The conversation turned to testimonies and I pretty well outright said, “I don’t feel comfortable with the church and I don’t have a testimony of it… Sometimes I get up [in testimony meeting] and say something that I don’t really believe just because I feel it is what people want to hear. Then I get down and feel terrible afterwards.”

He replied, “That’s a terrible existence.”

I agree 100%. It’s a living hell to find myself forced to live this way and if my bishop agrees why not leave the church? Especially when he says, “Sometimes I wish you’d just say ‘to heck with you all. This is what I’m going to do.’”

I guess maybe it’s time for me to put some faith in the Lord and go with what I feel. If God is on my side, it’ll all work out in the end. If not? …well, I’d rather not worry about that and just face life as it comes, even with all the unknowns.

 

[isaac.madsen]

Why the secret? One does not make money by writing a book claiming that it is from god. One makes money by writing a novel. See the difference. Joseph made no money from this book. What to do?

Honestly, I think his heart was in it. I think Joseph really believed in what he was doing. Faith brings results, no matter the religion. There is evidence of that all across the world.

 

[Eden]

The father of Joseph Smith, Jr.'s wife, Emma, made the following, sworn statements about the founder of Mormonism and his money-digging in 1834:

Joseph Smith Jr. resided near me for some time after this, and I had a good opportunity of becoming acquainted with him, and somewhat acquainted with his associates, and I conscientiously believe from the facts I have detailed, and from many other circumstances, which I do not deem it necessary to relate, that the whole “Book of Mormon” (so called) is a silly fabrication of falsehood and wickedness, got up for speculation, and with a design to dupe the credulous and unwary - and in order that its fabricators might live upon the spoils of those who swallowed the deception.

xmission.com/~research/about/docum3.htm

JS was simply a snake oil salesman of his time. He spent much of his youth on “get rich quick” schemes like money-digging and peep stones. I don’t understand why his followers can’t see how obvious it is that he was a fraud. I don’t agree that his faith is what motivated him. I’ve read accounts that state that JS was bouncing between several denominations, still seeking a church, even after he had “discovered” the plates and was translating them.

 

[majick275]

Emma was not heavily invested in the mormon church. There was a dispute about property but outside of that, she had no investment in the mormon church once Joseph was murdered. In fact, she married a non-member. When Brigham was disignated prophet, this was the time for emma to come out and claim its falsehood. But she didn’t. And that says quite a bit.

the dispute was about a LOT of property. I think the “investment” here refers to the “family business”. She did in fact go against Brigham Young and helped found a competing church. She wanted Brigham to be false but Joseph true so that she could continue to profit form her primary business. notice the vast differences in the original RLDS and the BY LDs churches. That tells us alot.