20 Truths about Mormons

[majick275]

Why the secret? One does not make money by writing a book claiming that it is from god. One makes money by writing a novel. See the difference. Joseph made no money from this book. What to do?

i suppose that’s true if one is an established writer or accepted by publishers. many others DO in fact make very good money by claiming their book is from God.

 

[GrammasRose]

    ...The following year the editor penned a tribute on the eightieth birthday of David Whitmer, who “with no regrets for the past” still “reiterates that he saw the glory of the angel.”
    This is the critical issue of the life of David Whitmer. During fifty years in non-Mormon society, he insisted with the fervor of his youth that he knew that the Book of Mormon was divinely revealed. Relatively few people in Richmond could wholly accept such testimony, but none doubted his intelligence or complete honesty. (Ibid., 74.)

Who to believe? The anti site with an agenda or David?

One has to wonder why if his testimony was so strong then why did he not rejoin the Church? It seems more of a contradiction to me.

 

[GrammasRose]

Brother, none of us has a lock on absolute truth, though some of us are closer to it than others.

Think how much more could be accomplished if all that study energy you Mormons spend trying to “prove” your religion to be “true” were spent instead on building the Body of Christ though the Church that Jesus founded…

I say the same for everyone in every cult or sect. The separated brethren are wasting valuable resources. Time, energy. And also scandalizing Christianity before a world that badly needs a solid witness of Jesus. You guys are mainly interested in stealing people from other religions. What a waste of time!

You have hit the proverbial nail on the head. The problem I have seen is that there is much talk going on about Joseph and his church, about Temples and the work therein, about working towards a celestial perfection that the good things are often missed. Things like deep spirituality and prayer, charity (not that they don’t have any going on) and aid for those who are in need etc. Things one can find much of in other churches especially the Catholic faith. And God seems to take second place in some respects in mormonism. I find it has become a church of suggestions rather than facts. If there isn’t a quick answer then there is always the avoidance and suggestion of how this might be and that might be rather than what is right before them. I find that especially true where the bible comes into the matter. I have never heard so many ways around one verse in my life. btw I am enjoying your comments as you seem to have a good grasp of things.

 

[GrammasRose]

Mormons do not try to prove that their church is true. The holy ghost does. You see, it goes this way. Eventually, the missionaries ask the investigator to pray over what they have been taught. The scripture is right in the book of mormon: ****Moroni 10: 4. And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things. ****

This is where the problem comes. When a person prays about it and receives a witness. It is difficult not to join. And all our given that verse to ponder and pray over. Thus, the enemies of the lds church want members to believe that it was just a ‘warm fuzzy’ and no big deal. But at that time, it was a big deal. The human mind just forgets and begins to rationalize the experience away. I am sure that it happened during Saint Paul’s time too.

Thus, no one tries to prove anything. It is the holy ghost that proves it and not the missionaries.

Or it is quite possible that one wants something so bad they will have the experience. The mind can be a funny thing. One should not test God but the things we come across as we are told in
1 Thessalonians 5:21
21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

 

[GrammasRose]

If someone comes on this forum and writes something about Mormon history and I believe that I know better, I will counter their claim. Likewise for other aspects of mormonism gleamed from an antimormon site. I have defended mormonism for quite some time only because of the ill intent of some of these antimormon websites. And I am in a good position to do this because I am a neutral person. Why should I allow an one-sided version go unchallenged?

I mean no offense when I say this but you don’t seem very neutral to me. You seem to be hanging on to one faith while particpating in another. Sitting on the fence. Been there done that myself far to long. Maybe it is time to remove yourself from the fence and choose. Just my 2 cents

 

[GrammasRose]

The difference is that deep in the mind in where the spirit must also testify, and powerfully, that something is true. It is a two-fold process. It must make sense in the mind and also in the heart. This does not mean it will be easy to back up such a witness. It merely means that to the one who received such a witness, there can be no denying what the knew in that instant.

Thank you for saying what I have been thinking and unable to put into words for some time now. One must sense it with both the mind and the heart and know it is true in both as well.

 

[GrammasRose]

In the new testament Paul advises women on modest dressing. He even tells women how not to keep their hair. For mormons, the body is a temple and should be treated as such. And so, the lds church cautions against tattoos, body piercings and excessive piercings. I think that it makes sense, if the body is a temple for the holy spirit to dwell as Paul claimed.

This reminds me of a few experiences I had that prove it isn’t the outside that matters. One being a homeless man I ran into one day crossing a parking lot. He was extremely dirty, ragged clothes and his nose was running constantly. He obviously had a cold. He approached me asking for money and I naturally recoiled a bit as I felt uncomfortable. I made a few excuses as I didn’t have any change with me and as I started to walk away I noticed a perfect book in his hand. It was a brand new leather bible one of the more expensive kind as it was slim etc. He saw my glance and he asked me if I wanted it. I told him I had a bible that he probably needed it much more than I did. I stood conversing with him for a few minutes and realized he was homeless due to losing his job and not having a home he could not obtain one. He was very sincere. As we parted he gave me that bible anyways. It was funny because I needed to buy one for a young woman who did not have one. I sent it to her. To this day that has made me look at all differently. It was a spiritual experience taught by a man I do not know.

On the other hand I have had mormon missionaries often in my home. When I was going through some trials and much like Isaac. I invited the missionaries to my home to teach me the lessons again. Two young men came and we proceeded with the first lesson. We started discussing the Bible and things got a bit uncomfortable. They were refering to the Book of Mormon constantly. I finally stated I wanted them to show me in the Bible the things that concerned me and help me find my answers there. The senior missionary companion looked at me and told me my bible was worthless basically and I would be wiser to rely on the Book of Mormon. His companion didn’t agree but stayed silent. The meeting came to an end and we parted both uncomfortably. I never asked them to return. That missionary was way out of line. So one cannot judge what is on the outside though it does help make one more comfortable sometimes the richest spirits come in packages you least expect. Sorry to ramble.

 

[deb1024]

Actually Isaac, the hat story is very faith promoting. Think about it. I believe that you believe that JS wrote the book of mormon. Why would he take so much trouble to write the book of mormon, and they make up a hat story is convince people what he wrote was true? It doesn’t make sense. And likewise, if sidney rigdon wrote the book and had Joseph Smith bring ‘forth’ the book, why would he have JS put his head in a hat and risk having his work laughed at? difficult to understand.

And if this is the case, I can only assume that JS’s story is perhaps true. Would you believe a speaking bush? That happened in the bible. Would you believe that god would create fire and walk between the fire to seal a convenant as he did in the bible after asking for sacrificed animals? He did that.

And Isaac, why would JS make up such a hat story after spending so much time writing the book. My gosh, what a idiot he must have been to do such a thing, if he wrote the book. No, my friend, it doesn’t make sense. Think about it.

Actually JS had been using that stone and hat for quite awhile looking for buried treasure. Quite a few people believed in his seeing abilities. Why would he go through all that? Because he saw that some people believed that he found something. If he could come up with his own religion and be the head prophet, then he could make up all the rules. That was worth it.

 

[GrammasRose]

However, although his wife frowned upon it, she never denied her husband’s calling as prophet, nor did she deny the book of mormon. Isn’t that interesting.

And although Allweather loves comparing Joseph Smith to David Koresh or Jim Jones, the last time I read how Joseph Smith was murdered he took none of his flock with him except his brother Hyrum who wanted to go to support his brother Joseph and John Taylor another willing volunteer. JS saved the lds community by sacrificing himself. He could have avoided death by having a mormon defense squad go with him. But he didn’t and he knew that his life was in danger. Do you see the difference?

She didn’t embrace it entirely and did not belong to it at the end of her life nor did she remarry a mormon after Joseph’s death that speaks volumes to me. nor did she condone polygamy in the least and opposed Brigham Young and his plans even to the point of legal battles with him. Another thing I find totally contrary is the fact she never saw the plates. Kind of puts her into a subservient position. She followed her husband because that is what women did back then. That is obvious.

 

[GrammasRose]

I think it is interesting how you phrase this, especially the part I emphasized. I watch BYU Channel quite a bit, and I’ve often viewed programs there, that wax long and poetic about the sacrificial nature of Joseph’s life. Long before I knew very much about Mormonism, I got the impression from watching these types of programs that Mormons see JS as a sort of Christ figure, and I remember asking several Mormons about this.

He saw himself as such here is a quote of his own.

Joseph Smith said, “I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I” (History of the Church, Vol. 6, pp. 408-09).

 

[GrammasRose]

Submission… what a nice choice of wording. The same word is used regarding slavery and Satan. I can submit and obey anything, but that doesn’t make it true or right. Perhaps you are “satisfied” with what you have come to believe, but I am not satisfied with the religion of my birth, nor am I satisfied with Catholicism from what I’ve seen thusfar. I don’t mean any of this with malice or ill will. I’m just stating it how I see it.

I understand how you feel here, but you might do a search on the word submit in the bible. You might be surprised at what you find.

 

[GrammasRose]

Emma was not heavily invested in the mormon church. There was a dispute about property but outside of that, she had no investment in the mormon church once Joseph was murdered. In fact, she married a non-member. When Brigham was disignated prophet, this was the time for emma to come out and claim its falsehood. But she didn’t. And that says quite a bit.

She didn’t endorse it either.

 

[GrammasRose]

The father of Joseph Smith, Jr.'s wife, Emma, made the following, sworn statements about the founder of Mormonism and his money-digging in 1834:

Joseph Smith Jr. resided near me for some time after this, and I had a good opportunity of becoming acquainted with him, and somewhat acquainted with his associates, and I conscientiously believe from the facts I have detailed, and from many other circumstances, which I do not deem it necessary to relate, that the whole “Book of Mormon” (so called) is a silly fabrication of falsehood and wickedness, got up for speculation, and with a design to dupe the credulous and unwary - and in order that its fabricators might live upon the spoils of those who swallowed the deception.

xmission.com/~research/about/docum3.htm

JS was simply a snake oil salesman of his time. He spent much of his youth on “get rich quick” schemes like money-digging and peep stones. I don’t understand why his followers can’t see how obvious it is that he was a fraud. I don’t agree that his faith is what motivated him. I’ve read accounts that state that JS was bouncing between several denominations, still seeking a church, even after he had “discovered” the plates and was translating them.

The problem is though it may have started with Joseph that isn’t what the Church is about today in reality.

 

[isaac.madsen]

Thank you for saying what I have been thinking and unable to put into words for some time now. One must sense it with both the mind and the heart and know it is true in both as well.

No problem. It makes a lot of sense, really. What is the first great commandment? “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.”

Matthew 22:37
Mark 12:30
Luke 10:27
Hebrews 8:10, 10:16
Philippians 4:7

 

[isaac.madsen]

I understand how you feel here, but you might do a search on the word submit in the bible. You might be surprised at what you find.

True. I suppose it is in the meaning of the word to those who use it. That’s the problem with human communication - especially Internet communication. It’s not always easy to see what people mean by what they say.

 

[PaulDupre]

Actually JS had been using that stone and hat for quite awhile looking for buried treasure. Quite a few people believed in his seeing abilities. Why would he go through all that? Because he saw that some people believed that he found something. If he could come up with his own religion and be the head prophet, then he could make up all the rules. That was worth it.

What I find most strange about the “peep stone” is that, even though Joseph claimed to be in possession of the urim and thummim which he claimed enabled prophets to translate, he never used them. Instead, he “translated” using a “peep stone” he found while digging a well.

BTW, though Joseph described the urim and thummim as “crystal spectacles in gold wire frames”, experts have said that the urim and thummim were white and black stones (in the ancient Cannanite language urim = “the whites”; thummim = “the blacks”) used by the ancients to make a decision between two things. They would put the stones in a leather bag and pull one out, trusting God to make the choice. White meant yes and black meant no. Or you could assign values to the white and black (like “Matthias or Barnabas”?).

Paul

 

[why_me]

The father of Joseph Smith, Jr.'s wife, Emma, made the following, sworn statements about the founder of Mormonism and his money-digging in 1834:

Joseph Smith Jr. resided near me for some time after this, and I had a good opportunity of becoming acquainted with him, and somewhat acquainted with his associates, and I conscientiously believe from the facts I have detailed, and from many other circumstances, which I do not deem it necessary to relate, that the whole “Book of Mormon” (so called) is a silly fabrication of falsehood and wickedness, got up for speculation, and with a design to dupe the credulous and unwary - and in order that its fabricators might live upon the spoils of those who swallowed the deception.

xmission.com/~research/about/docum3.htm

If you read these words correctly it seems to me that this man has a axe to grind. And it is only an opinion. Also, the website that you quoted from is designed to cast doubt in members minds. As on this forum, many people had negative speculations about the book of mormon during JS’s time. Times have not changed, have they?

Interestingly, no one gained from the book of mormon. Joseph was murdered as was his brother, Mobs tarred and feathered him, and two of his little children died from the after experience. The witnesses to the book of mormon gained nothing also. Thus, this bitter old man who wrote this could not adjust himself to Emma becoming a Mormon.

 

[why_me]

She didn’t endorse it either.

She did. She claimed the book of mormon to be a work of god to her husband whom she married after Joseph was murdered.

 

[why_me]

I met with my bishop a few minutes ago and we had a fine discussion. I told him a few of my issues with the temple and he ended up turning the conversation a little. He said, “I don’t think a few handshakes or money-changing are really the issue here.”

The conversation turned to testimonies and I pretty well outright said, “I don’t feel comfortable with the church and I don’t have a testimony of it… Sometimes I get up [in testimony meeting] and say something that I don’t really believe just because I feel it is what people want to hear. Then I get down and feel terrible afterwards.”

He was right. And as you can see he didn’t talk excommunication. To have doubts is normal. It is what you do with those doubts that matter. And by the way, I haven’t given my testimony in 27 years. No one forces anyone to stand up and give their testimony. I think Isaac that you create your own problem at times. Relax and and just be who you are.

 

[why_me]

the dispute was about a LOT of property. I think the “investment” here refers to the “family business”. She did in fact go against Brigham Young and helped found a competing church. She wanted Brigham to be false but Joseph true so that she could continue to profit form her primary business. notice the vast differences in the original RLDS and the BY LDs churches. That tells us alot.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news here but the mormons were driven from their homes on numerous occasions and did not receive an indian head nickel for their property. Likewise, when Brigham and the saints headed west, all property was left behind. I seriously doubt that the local townspeople purchased mormon property before the mormons left. And the mormon city of Nauvoo was destroyed.

Do you see my point?