27 NT Books - How do you know?

[SteveVH]

yes , we have said that. Right, but what is the time frame of error to repentance ? For example when did Peter repent of not wanting Jesus to go to the cross and Jesus rebuked him with the get behind me ? Was it after the rebuke because months even a year later he still drew the sword against his arrestors ? Anyways not sure what analogy fails . Was it free will to "error’’ or predestined to infallibility or the time frame issue ?

When the cock crowed, Peter wept. That was an immediate repentance. The Scripture is silent on Peter’s reaction to his rebuke for not wanting Jesus to go to the cross.

 

[benhur]

I don’t think you understand infallibility, it only applies to articles faith and morals. The Pope can make errors just not in regard to those two things though.

yes thank you as perhaps you do not understand how it stills sounds a bit like Calvin and predestination or OSAS.

 

[benhur]

When the cock crowed, Peter wept. That was an immediate repentance. The Scripture is silent on Peter’s reaction to his rebuke for not wanting Jesus to go to the cross.

A beginning of repentance but not fully for he went back to fishing. The cross thing took some time which was part of my point, time.

 

[KP3243]

yes thank you as perhaps you do not understand how it stills sounds a bit like Calvin and predestination or OSAS.

how does it sound like predestination? The chair of Peter has the privilege of infallibility. Pope Benedict no longer is protected by infallibility as he no longer sits on the Chair of Peter, Pope Francis does. They also don’t laud it over us that their declarations on faith and morals are infallible since whatever they determine then they apply to all of us and themselves as Pope.

 

[benhur]

how does it sound like predestination? The chair of Peter has the privilege of infallibility. Pope Benedict no longer is protected by infallibility as he no longer sits on the Chair of Peter, Pope Francis does. They also don’t laud it over us that their declarations on faith and morals are infallible since whatever they determine then they apply to all of us and themselves as Pope.

Predestination is unconditional election. Infallibility is unconditional for the chair of Peter (on faith and morals).

 

[Telstar]

A beginning of repentance but not fully for he went back to fishing. The cross thing took some time which was part of my point, time.

Are you seriously questioning Peter’s immediate repentance? As soon as that rooster crowed, Peter met the eyes of Jesus and immediately knew what he had done. He didn’t just weep, he bawled like a baby, because he realized that he had denied Jesus, after he insisted that he never would. There was no delay in his repentance. It was instantaneous.

I don’t know if you’re a fisherman or not, but I’ve been fishing since I was big enough to hold onto the branch that my Dad cut from a tree, tied on a piece of throw-line, then added a hook and worm to the end of it. That was well over 50 years ago. Fishing isn’t just something that you do to catch fish, though. Sometimes, I used to go fishing just to think about things that were going on in my life. It’s peaceful and quiet, so it’s a perfect time to pray and contemplate the things that weigh heavy on your heart.

Peter was a fisherman, so his first thought was to do what came natural to him. He did it because it was something familiar to him. It was a kind of coping mechanism to deal with the shock of all that had happened. He needed to think things through, and figure out what he should do next. He certainly didn’t do it because he gave up on Jesus, as you seem to be implying. He didn’t go alone, either. Some of the others went with him, and Jesus knew where to find them. He came to them, while they were there, to comfort them.

Predestination is unconditional election. Infallibility is unconditional for the chair of Peter (on faith and morals).

Catholics don’t believe in predestination. That was a grave error that Calvin taught. Predestination eliminates the possibility of our having free will to choose for ourselves, which is a gift that God gave to the angels and all of mankind. Infallibility has nothing to do with free will. It’s a method used to determine the truth of doctrine, and was given directly to the Church by Jesus. His promise was that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church “into all truth” until Jesus came, again.

Just because the Church teaches the truth, we are still free to choose whether we should accept whatever the Church teaches, or follow our own path. When we choose to follow our own judgement, we run the risk of losing our soul. Some people are willing to take that risk, some are not. Infallibility is a safeguard to let us know what the truth is, so we can make an informed choice. But, in the end, it’s always up to us to choose our own fate. We can always follow our own path if we ‘feel lucky’, but we do it at our own risk. If we’re wrong; we will lose the most precious gift we have.

 

[benhur]

Are you seriously questioning Peter’s immediate repentance? As soon as that rooster crowed, Peter met the eyes of Jesus and immediately knew what he had done. He didn’t just weep, he bawled like a baby, because he realized that he had denied Jesus, after he insisted that he never would. There was no delay in his repentance. It was instantaneous.

 

[Telstar]

There is a difference in being sorry and repenting.

That may be true, but given the circumstances and Peter’s immediate response to seeing the look in Jesus’ eyes, I sincerely doubt that Peter would not have repented, immediately. I see Peter’s bitter weeping as being proof of his repentance. That may just be my personal opinion, but I’ve never heard of anyone thinking otherwise.

Understand the coping but Peter needed to be “restored” as an apostle. There is nothing"natural" in being an apostle. Not implying Peter gave up on Jesus but perhaps Peter gave up on himself for sure. He was “broken”.

I agree that he may have been a broken man at that point in time. I’m sure his pride and obstinacy was lowered by a lot more than a notch or two, compared to what he showed the day before. But, I certainly don’t think Peter’s Apostleship was ever in doubt by anyone. Jesus had already told him that Satan wished to, “sift you as wheat”, but He had prayed for him, so his faith would not fail. Peter’s faith in Jesus is what kept him from completely falling apart with guilt, like Judas did. St. Cyril of Jerusalem says this about it:“The Lord is loving unto man, and swift to pardon, but slow to punish. Let no man therefore despair of his own salvation. Peter, the chiefest and foremost of the Apostles, denied the Lord thrice before a little maid: but he repented himself, and wept bitterly. Now weeping shows the repentance of the heart: and therefore he not only received forgiveness for his denial, but also held his Apostolic dignity unforfeited.”

Again, you eliminate the free will to error for a church (CC), that unconditionally Christ will guide a particular church(CC), unlike any other particular church(non-C’s). It is predestined that way per your interpretation of Christ’s words.

The Church is not dependent on the decisions of just one man, and no decisions are ever made based on a whim. The Bishops and the Pope are well aware of their grave responsibility to God, to faithfully lead His people into the Truth of Christ. They make all of their decisions based on study, prayer and discussion for a long time, before ever making any final proclamations about faith or morals. Some things can take many years of careful study and debate. Predestination has nothing to do with it, at least not in the sense that Calvin taught about the fate of individuals. The Church is continually guided and protected by the Holy Spirit, ever since Jesus sent Him to the Apostles. His constant guidance is what keeps the Church free from teaching error. To deny the infallibility of their decisions, is to deny the Power of the Holy Spirit to fulfill His Mission in the Church established by Jesus Christ. I think that’s a pretty serious issue for all of us to pray about.

 

[benhur]

His constant guidance is what keeps the Church free from teaching error.

Error free is as error free does,… a gumperism(Forest). When we are right he has guided us. When we are wrong he has not. Only two of the seven revelation churches were spot on .The others had either error in teaching or practice or heart ,even a combination.

To deny the infallibility of their decisions, is to deny the Power of the Holy Spirit to fulfill His Mission in the Church established by Jesus Christ. I think that’s a pretty serious issue for all of us to pray about

Yes pray for discernment for as in the days of old there were many prophets to discern from, as today.

 

[Telstar]

Error free is as error free does,… a gumperism(Forest). When we are right he has guided us. When we are wrong he has not. Only two of the seven revelation churches were spot on .The others had either error in teaching or practice or heart ,even a combination.

You do realize that all of the 7 ‘churches’ mentioned in the Apocalypse, are all parts of the same Church that Jesus Christ established, right? They are all symbolic of different aspects of that One True Church. “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.” means that the Bishops must listen to the Holy Spirit, Who will always guide the Church; regarding their perseverance in their practice of the virtues, as well as in recognizing their ‘faults’ that they must overcome through prayer and penance. There are 7 deadly sins, and there are 7 virtues that counteract the effects of those sins. There are also 7 Sacraments in the Catholic Church, so the number 7 is very important in regards to our salvation. That’s why the references to the “7 churches” each have different aspects of them exemplified, because they are all important to the whole Church as the Body of Christ.

Yes pray for discernment for as in the days of old there were many prophets to discern from, as today.

In regards to the only Church that has always been led by the Holy Spirit, there is little need for individuals to have to worry about following false prophets, because the Church is responsible for making that determination for Its members, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. So, if anyone tries to lead us away from the Catholic Church, we can know for certain that they are false prophets. It’s only those who are outside the Catholic Church, who are out following their own path, that are much more likely to be led by false prophets, teaching error. I’ve already tried that route. When I was very young and thought I knew better than what I was taught by the Church, I went looking for ‘something better’. After a few years of experimenting in many other places, I realized that I wasn’t really as smart as I thought I was.

Like I said, if anyone believes that the Holy Spirit has failed to complete His Mission, then they can certainly choose to follow a different path. Personally, I have absolutely no doubt that the Holy Spirit has all the power in the world to do exactly what Jesus said He would do. But, you’re entitled to your own opinion, whether or not you believe that the Holy Spirit really has that kind of power. You might want to reconsider your options if you don’t believe that, though.

 

[benhur]

You do realize that all of the 7 ‘churches’ mentioned in the Apocalypse, are all parts of the same Church that Jesus Christ established, right? They are all symbolic of different aspects of that One True Church. “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.” means that the Bishops must listen to the Holy Spirit, Who will always guide the Church; regarding their perseverance in their practice of the virtues, as well as in recognizing their ‘faults’ that they must overcome through prayer and penance. There are 7 deadly sins, and there are 7 virtues that counteract the effects of those sins. There are also 7 Sacraments in the Catholic Church, so the number 7 is very important in regards to our salvation. That’s why the references to the “7 churches” each have different aspects of them exemplified, because they are all important to the whole Church as the Body of Christ.

Thank you for your take on revelations, As you may know it is not the only interpretation, That they were all Roman Catholic churches is contested by some also, Others may say the seven are of the ecclesia but separate and distinct also,more autonomous than you think,yet apostolic. Some faults were doctrinal

from the Catholic Church, we can know for certain that they are false prophets. It’s only those who are outside the Catholic Church, who are out following their own path, that are much more likely to be led by false prophets, teaching error. I’ve already tried that route. When I was very young and thought I knew better than what I was taught by the Church, I went looking for ‘something better’. After a few years of experimenting in many other places, I realized that I wasn’t really as smart as I thought I was.

As there were true and not so true prophets in the one true and holy religion before Christianity in Judaism, there are also good and not so good prophets in Christianity, even from within CC history,even today,The sign of not so true is not if they say don’t be C but don’t be Christian and more so just what is a christian. For as in the days of old, most did not say don’t be jewish but had a slant on how to be jewish.

Like I said, if anyone believes that the Holy Spirit has failed to complete His Mission, then they can certainly choose to follow a different path. Personally, I have absolutely no doubt that the Holy Spirit has all the power in the world to do exactly what Jesus said He would do. But, you’re entitled to your own opinion, whether or not you believe that the Holy Spirit really has that kind of power. You might want to reconsider your options if you don’t believe that, though

If anyone thinks the Holy Spirit has failed in His mission by guiding reformers of the church that is their prerogative also.