2nd Amendment of USA constitution

[Scott_Lafrance]

So you are telling me that in the European countries where there is no equivalent of the second amendment there are no murders or violent crime? Are you telling me that in countries like Libya, Syria, Egypt that do not have an equivalent to the second amendment the government can be trusted with the security of the citizens? Are you also telling me that guns have the free will to kill people and humans are just objects wrapped around the guns?

BTW the 5th says do not murder (as in do not kill the innocent one)!

Switzerland requires every male to serve in the military for 2 years, and gets to keep his rifle and gear at home after his service. So, every man over the age of 18 in Switzerland has a battle rifle, ammunition, and military training. So this notion that Europe has nothing similar is bubkiss. And our Second Amendment is as much about protecting “We the People” against our government as it is for protecting us against each other. Apparently, the Europeans have become comfortable and complacent with overbearing, abusive government. Americans are on the verge of fixing theirs one way or the other.

 

[exnihilo]

Bin Laden got the Twin Towers down.
What was the use of the 2nd Amendment for that?

You picked a bad example. Your example actually proves that more people should be armed!

The reason planes could be successfully hijacked is because pilots were not allowed to be armed and were told to cooperate with hijackers. The US government’s law forced pilots and passengers to be helpless victims used in a terrible act. Immediately after the attacks pilots were allowed to carry guns to protect passengers and prevent this from happening again. In this case box cutters were able to kill thousands of people when a single gun could have saved them.

 

[thesmiter1]

Any and all of my posts were not deemed worthy of response, it seems. I thought I had at least a few decent observations…

 

[SanAgustin]

I would argue that is not a very traditional American understanding of the state. America was born out of mistrust of government. The very reasonable and Christian understanding was that power corrupts. A government is not likely to be good because people with power are not likely to be good. It defies human nature to say great power accumulated by the state will not be abused. Government is pure force. The only thing that keeps it in check is force or the threat of force. There is no magical system of words in documents that keep a government in check. It takes people being willing to stand up and face death for what is true and right to keep government in check. Very few Americans are willing to do that and so the US government has no real checks upon it.

We don’t agree on this at all.

First of all, I’m a 1st generation immigrant to this country. I chose to become a US citizen because I love this country, and party because I think it has the best system of government possible that we humans could have come up so far. I wouldn’t have emigrated to the US if I thought the government, as it was setup, was inherently corrupt and unaccountable. If you hold such a view, please don’t talk to immigrants, tourists or foreign investors please.

After being sworn in as a citizen, my first desire was to get my voter’s card, not to go buy a gun. As I see it, what keeps this country from being taken over by a dictatorship is not that people have guns, but because such a scenario is highly unlikely with the separation of powers installed by the constitution. You can see in Latin America, how military coups and endless versions of constitutions would happen, and even in countries with high number of gun ownership this wouldn’t stabilize such countries.

So no, I don’t think that’s the main reason we haven’t had a tyranny.

 

[SanAgustin]

Switzerland requires every male to serve in the military for 2 years, and gets to keep his rifle and gear at home after his service. So, every man over the age of 18 in Switzerland has a battle rifle, ammunition, and military training.

So everybody is properly trained, this sounds better than what we have.

So this notion that Europe has nothing similar is bubkiss. And our Second Amendment is as much about protecting “We the People” against our government as it is for protecting us against each other. Apparently, the Europeans have become comfortable and complacent with overbearing, abusive government. Americans are on the verge of fixing theirs one way or the other.

What do you mean by “fixing theirs one way or the other”?

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

You picked a bad example. Your example actually proves that more people should be armed!

The reason planes could be successfully hijacked is because pilots were not allowed to be armed and were told to cooperate with hijackers. The US government’s law forced pilots and passengers to be helpless victims used in a terrible act. Immediately after the attacks pilots were allowed to carry guns to protect passengers and prevent this from happening again. In this case box cutters were able to kill thousands of people when a single gun could have saved them.

What I say: did 2nd Amendment prevent what happened? Simple answer: NO.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

What I say: did 2nd Amendment prevent what happened? Simple answer: NO.

The Second Amendment was infringed by the FAA, so no, it didn’t prevent what happened because the federal government took the right of the pilot to arm himself away.

 

[exnihilo]

After being sworn in as a citizen, my first desire was to get my voter’s card, not to go buy a gun.

If it were legal I’d gladly seell you my vote so I could buy another gun. That gun would be much more useful. Voting is the greatest scam ever invented. It makes you feel like you have a say in things. Statistically your vote in national matters is absolutely irrelevant. Your vote will never make a difference. But it feels good. Marx was wrong of course. Voting is the opiate of the masses.

What I say: did 2nd Amendment prevent what happened? Simple answer: NO.

No, the 2nd Amendment did not prevent what happened. As Scott_Lafrance points out it was infringed by the government. But most importantly what did not prevent what happened was the government. They promise to make us secure and yet utterly failed in a spectacular way. It is hard to convince me to turn my safety and security over to such a bumbling mess of incompetence.

 

[SanAgustin]

If it were legal I’d gladly seell you my vote so I could buy another gun. That gun would be much more useful. Voting is the greatest scam ever invented. It makes you feel like you have a say in things. Statistically your vote in national matters is absolutely irrelevant. Your vote will never make a difference. But it feels good. Marx was wrong of course. Voting is the opiate of the masses.

I’m glad you just came out and said it. So in your view, your ownership of your gun is really what makes you a citizen participating in a democracy. The whole voting thing at the local and federal levels is a waste of time right?

So tell me, in the say, past 50 years when has your ownership of your gun or anybody around you affected a political outcome.

 

[bigfootbob]

Any and all of my posts were not deemed worthy of response, it seems. I thought I had at least a few decent observations…

Welcome to the world of online discussions. If you have a good point it can just be ignored

Seriously though, there are a lot of visitors to this site, and people read a lot more than they write on here, so your comments do make a difference.

 

[exnihilo]

I’m glad you just came out and said it. So in your view, your ownership of your gun is really what makes you a citizen participating in a democracy. The whole voting thing at the local and federal levels is a waste of time right?

If you live in a small town of a few hundred people your vote could make a difference. But on the national level there is no way it will ever make a difference. How many elections come down to one vote? A persons vote in modern governments, given the population, is meaningless. This is just a statistical fact.

I dont think all voting is a waste of time. In a jury one vote can make a difference. In the US a single vote of not guilty prevents a person from being convicted of a crime. And yet how many Americans look to get out of jury duty they only time their vote can make a difference?

So tell me, in the say, past 50 years when has your ownership of your gun or anybody around you affected a political outcome.

It hasn’t nor I have I claimed it has. What it does do is offer me protection from evil doers, including the state. I’ve not had a payout of my homeowners insurance but that does not mean it has not been something beneficial. It, like my gun, offers me some measure of safety against the unknown.

By the way according to the US government often times guns in the hands of citizens are important for freedom. The first time was the rebellion against Britain. But even recently the rebels of Libya were supposedly the good guys who were able to free their country thanks to them having guns. So according to the state private guns even today are freeing people from tyranny.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

If it were legal I’d gladly seell you my vote so I could buy another gun. That gun would be much more useful. Voting is the greatest scam ever invented. It makes you feel like you have a say in things. Statistically your vote in national matters is absolutely irrelevant. Your vote will never make a difference. But it feels good. Marx was wrong of course. Voting is the opiate of the masses.

No, the 2nd Amendment did not prevent what happened. As Scott_Lafrance points out it was infringed by the government. But most importantly what did not prevent what happened was the government. They promise to make us secure and yet utterly failed in a spectacular way. It is hard to convince me to turn my safety and security over to such a bumbling mess of incompetence.

Couldn’t have said it better myself. Voting, like home ownership and college education, are the greatest scams of tyannical control ever created.

Well, there are more, like political parties, health insurance, television news, unions,…

 

[Dan_Daly]

The Pilgrim Fathers had no atomic bomb, no submarines, no airplanes, no rockets. To defend themselves, they statued that every man had the right to bear arms.

But, nowadays? Why the USA does not abolish the 2nd Amendment? No other country has such a rule. I think on this for a long time and the movies Americans produce that influence the whole world of such a violence, guns, shooting …

Now, I had to start this thread. Yesterday night I was seeing a reporter following a patrol car the whole night in Philadelphia. The Brotherly Love City has got 50 shootings a night. What struck me most was what a clak policeman saying: “We are here to take the guns out of the street!”.

LOL, it was the American Constitution that puts them there !!!??

Remember the 5th Comandement for Christian Amecia: “You shall not kill!”. Please do not tell me that guns do not kil it is people who kills,…please…

Philadelphia has some very restrictive (and one could argue unconstitutional) gun control laws. By far the most restrictive in the state of Pennsylvania. So why as you you point out are firearms used in crimes so much there?

Criminals by definition don’t follow the law. Law abiding citizens do. So if guns are illegal only the criminals will have guns.

There is no less need for self defense now as there was at the founding of the United States. Furthermore, the purpose of the 2nd ammendment, goes beyond self defense against criminals. It is intended to protect the people from their government if the government becomes tyrannical. This was not some abstract agrument, this was what the American founding fathers lived through. They were only able to gain their freedom because they had arms. Why were the battles of Lexington and Concord, which ignited the war fought? Because the British were coming to take away the arms of the colonists.

Pax.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Philadelphia has some very restrictive (and one could argue unconstitutional) gun control laws. By far the most restrictive in the state of Pennsylvania. So why as you you point out are firearms used in crimes so much there?

Criminals by definition don’t follow the law. Law abiding citizens do. So if guns are illegal only the criminals will have guns.

There is no less need for self defense now as there was at the founding of the United States. Furthermore, the purpose of the 2nd ammendment, goes beyond self defense against criminals. It is intended to protect the people from their government if the government becomes tyrannical. This was not some abstract agrument, this was what the American founding fathers lived through. They were only able to gain their freedom because they had arms. Why were the battles of Lexington and Concord, which ignited the war fought? Because the British were coming to take away the arms of the colonists.

Pax.

An unarmed citizen is a slave of the state.

 

[SanAgustin]

Couldn’t have said it better myself. Voting, like home ownership and college education, are the greatest scams of tyannical control ever created.

Well, there are more, like political parties, health insurance, television news, unions,…

Please explain to me how my masters in computer science is a tyrannical scam?

 

[Dan_Daly]

Please explain to me how my masters in computer science is a tyrannical scam?

Speaking for myself, I’d say getting an education in and of itself is not a scam, but much of how our society views higher education could qualify as such. I have a degree, and don’t think I was scammed. But in a very real way, I’d agree that our educational system scams a great many people.

People are told if they don’t go to college they are failure. Ignoring lots of honorable professions- plumbing, welding, electrician, machinist, etc. Women are told they are a failure if they don’t go to college, even if they plan on being a stay at home mother. If you don’t go to college you are poor, dumb or lazy- or at least that is what many in our society think. That doesn’t mean college isn’t for some people. It just means it isn’t for everyone.

So what is the harm of folks going to college when they don’t need to? They get an education right?

Well perhaps. They also get saddled with a debt that weighs them down for much of the rest of their life, get indoctrinated into anti-Christian ideologies (at least at most schools), and exposed to an incredibly hedonistic lifestyle (again at most schools).

Educational institutions- Colleges, Secondary, and Primary schools have been one of the primary vehicles used by adherents to various Anti-Christian ideologies to transform American culture. That’s because it’s very difficult to change the mind of an adult. It is much easier to influence the young.

Pax.

 

[SanAgustin]

If you live in a small town of a few hundred people your vote could make a difference. But on the national level there is no way it will ever make a difference. How many elections come down to one vote? A persons vote in modern governments, given the population, is meaningless. This is just a statistical fact.

This is silly because the value of your vote is not that it can be the deciding factor in a close election but the value is in the cummulative effect it has. If everybody was as apathetic to voting as you, then we wouldn’t have a representative democracy. What a nihilist and small minded view you have!

It hasn’t nor I have I claimed it has. What it does do is offer me protection from evil doers, including the state. I’ve not had a payout of my homeowners insurance but that does not mean it has not been something beneficial. It, like my gun, offers me some measure of safety against the unknown.

You can’t show a single instance in the last century that shows that gun ownership in the Us has affected a decision by the government. However we can cite many nonviolent actions that have (voting, civil rigths protests). We just have to take you word for it I guess

The lybia example is sad, the countries don’t even compare, and you totally miss the point since the rebels there needed more than hand guns and rifles to topple ghadaffi Or did you miss the air bombardment and heavier weapons running around. Do you think you have a right to RPGs and tanks?

 

[SanAgustin]

What anti christian ideologies are taught at an engineerin school? Examples please.

While some poeple don’t need to go to college for their career, I’m leery o arguments that we need to have less people in higher Ed. Have you traveled outside the US? Are you aware that emerging economies are focusing on those areas? To compete globally we need more people in higher Ed than less.

 

[Dan_Daly]

The lybia example is sad, the countries don’t even compare, and you totally miss the point since the rebels there needed more than hand guns and rifles to topple ghadaffi Or did you miss the air bombardment and heavier weapons running around. Do you think you have a right to RPGs and tanks?

Is there some inherent difference between Libyans and Americans? Or are we all men and women, made in the image and likeness of God, and subject to the temptations of sin?

If there is not some inherent difference between Libyans and Americans, then we must conclude that the situation Libyans found themselves in- being under the rule of an oppresive dictator- is one that Americans might find themselves in one day. In that case, Americans would not be able to remove their oppressor without arms, just as control on arms in Libya helped keep the ruler in power for so long.

People can own tanks if they want. They are incredibly expensive and time consuming just to maintain. Some people do, I’ve been to a few private tank museaums. Now just because you have the right to own something doesn’t mean you have the right to do whatever you want with it. In the same way that the right to own a gun doesn’t mean you can run up and down the street waving it in people’s faces, ownership of a tank doesn’t mean you can rumble around through the neighborhood drving through and over people’s houses and blowing stuff up.

Why do you limit yourself to the last 100 years of American history? While I would disagree that the fact the populace is armed hasn’t influenced the government over this period, it is quite clearly seen if you go back a little farther. Lexington and Concord is a good place to start.

Pax.

 

[Dan_Daly]

What anti christian ideologies are taught at an engineerin school? Examples please.

While some poeple don’t need to go to college for their career, I’m leery o arguments that we need to have less people in higher Ed. Have you traveled outside the US? Are you aware that emerging economies are focusing on those areas? To compete globally we need more people in higher Ed than less.

As I said it depends on the school. But in general, engineering students are exposed to the same anti-christian ideologies as all other students- because at least most schools require engineering students to take some non-engineering courses. (Of course ideology good or bad- can be spread in an engineering class as well). Engineering students at most schools are also exposed to the campus culture that exists outside the classroom.

Of the top of my head I’d say the vast majority of American colleges and universities teach students:
-Fornication, contraception and abortion are all fine.
-Christianity is an outmoded and closeminded world view.

You find a lot of marxists on the staff at universities. As well as many others who adhere believe what marxism teaches but call themselves something else- feminists, environmentalists, “progressives”, humanists, atheists, etc, etc.

Most schools have men and women living next door to each other and sharing bathrooms. Drunkeness and Fornication are accepted as a normal part of the “college experience”.

-Again- at most schools. There are exceptions, but in my experience they are rare.

Pax.