2nd Amendment of USA constitution

[exnihilo]

Couldn’t have said it better myself. Voting, like home ownership and college education, are the greatest scams of tyannical control ever created.

Thanks and I agree. These all have the ultimate goal of making you a compliant and unquestioning citizen. You can vote, so you feel you make a difference. You are taught in school to not question authority (except for the church) so you will sit there and take it from the government or your corporate employer. And just to make sure you really cant do anything drastic they want you to be tied down to some piece of property that you think you make money off when you sell years later for an inflation based pseudo profit only to buy another house that appreciated just as much as your during the time you owned it. People think they can own property. Try not paying tax (rent) and see who really owns it.

This is silly because the value of your vote is not that it can be the deciding factor in a close election but the value is in the cummulative effect it has. If everybody was as apathetic to voting as you, then we wouldn’t have a representative democracy. What a nihilist and small minded view you have!

What is this cummulative effect? If 3 billion people vote for something and you are the sole vote against it what effect have you had? None. You have registered your opinion but done nothing more than that. Registering your opinion makes people feel good. That is the beauty of democracy in the minds of the rulers.

You’ll have to convince me that democracy has any value. I’m a monarchist. And I arrived at this point of view after much study and consideration. For a Christian it shouldn’t be too hard to see my point of view. With God you get no vote. God is a monarch, so monarchy cant be bad in and of itself. The idea that the mass of sinful man can make good decisions is not something that is clear from Christian thinking.

You can’t show a single instance in the last century that shows that gun ownership in the Us has affected a decision by the government. However we can cite many nonviolent actions that have (voting, civil rigths protests). We just have to take you word for it I guess

I’ve never said that guns are the only way to political change. They are a last resort, obviously. Of course what is not known is how much the fear of armed citizens has kept government somewhat in check.

The lybia example is sad, the countries don’t even compare, and you totally miss the point since the rebels there needed more than hand guns and rifles to topple ghadaffi Or did you miss the air bombardment and heavier weapons running around. Do you think you have a right to RPGs and tanks?

We dont know that the ‘rebels’ needed more than guns and rifles. All we know is that at some point the US started bombing Libya. This bombing surely did bring about a quick end to the Libyan government.

If you read my earlier posts you’ll see that I do believe citizens should be able to own RPGs, tanks and any other weapon. To make my point again there is plenty of evidence that governments are the least responsible moral agents and should not at all be trusted to use these weapons rightly since they almost never do.

Is there some inherent difference between Libyans and Americans? Or are we all men and women, made in the image and likeness of God, and subject to the temptations of sin?

If there is not some inherent difference between Libyans and Americans, then we must conclude that the situation Libyans found themselves in- being under the rule of an oppresive dictator- is one that Americans might find themselves in one day. In that case, Americans would not be able to remove their oppressor without arms, just as control on arms in Libya helped keep the ruler in power for so long.

Excellend post and a question I’m constantly troubled by. It seems Americans think they and they alone should have all the worlds weapons. Most Americans seem to think we are always holy and act rightly. Whenever a person finds no fault with themselves they are always a terror to others. The same is true for a nation. I’m always thoughtful of the Christian idea that if you dont judge yourself you will be judged in a much more terrible way. God help us!

 

[SanAgustin]

As I said it depends on the school. But in general, engineering students are exposed to the same anti-christian ideologies as all other students- because at least most schools require engineering students to take some non-engineering courses. (Of course ideology good or bad- can be spread in an engineering class as well). Engineering students at most schools are also exposed to the campus culture that exists outside the classroom.

What did you study?

I interview quite a bit of people, and most people who study engineering are not taking “anti-christian ideology” classes, unless you consider Physics I/II, Calculus I/II/III and Thermodynamics as anti-Christian. Yes, we do have to take electives, but you pretty much chose what those are aside from some required classes (like English …).

Of the top of my head I’d say the vast majority of American colleges and universities teach students:
-Fornication, contraception and abortion are all fine.
-Christianity is an outmoded and closeminded world view.

I don’t remember these classes …

You find a lot of marxists on the staff at universities. As well as many others who adhere believe what marxism teaches but call themselves something else- feminists, environmentalists, “progressives”, humanists, atheists, etc, etc.

That’s funny, I would see quite a bit of my professors attend Mass at the campus Catholic Church, and this was at a state university. I would say there’s all kinds of people in college, just like in the real world, and in general this is a good thing.

Kind of difficult to promote your Marxist agenda while teaching differential equations though.

Most schools have men and women living next door to each other and sharing bathrooms. Drunkeness and Fornication are accepted as a normal part of the “college experience”.

-Again- at most schools. There are exceptions, but in my experience they are rare.

Pax.

Your negative view of college is very limiting and narrow minded. Of course, like in the real world, there are temptations for students of all kinds. But you would hope that their parents have done a good job bringing them up in their faith so they can combat those temptations, just like they will have to do when they get nicer higher paying jobs than the people who chose not to bother.

 

[StarFireKK]

Yes, Americans like their guns. It is probably because most of us are decedents from people who have fled their countries because they were being treated poorly. It wasn’t the rich, safe and secure who made the dangerous trip across the ocean.

Lots of American movies aren’t moral. They also aren’t a good reflection of American values. Nobody lives their lives the way they do in the movies- it is pure entertainment.

Not to pick on our NY brethren. But you do understand that NY city folks are known for having grumpy attitudes. That’s also not a reflection of the country as a whole, we all tease them about that.

Most Americans will never allow the 2nd Amendment to be touched. I’m not sure I agree with the poster that stated if the Constitution was written today that right would not be there. The 2nd Amendment is was gives us the means to protect all the rest of our rights.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

StarFireKK:
I agree with 99% of what you say.

Nevertheless, the USA is eager to say other countries what to do: Korea, Vietnam, Panama, Cuba, Iraq, Afganistan, Somalia, Liberia, just to mention the military intervention in those countries.

Now, why is the USA so sensitive to change its one ways when something is wrong? Is the USA Constitution above all suspition? Do the USA citizens consider the “american way of life” the model which should be copied but not corrected?

Why wont USA citizens change the Constitution if if the Constitution was made today, it probably would not include the 2nd amendment? Would they feel humiliated?

I know the movies do not reflect American Society. I tell you a tue joke. A studen from a country I will not mention went to LA University and in the first weeks was inviting all the girls on sight ti sleep with him. Of course, with complaint raining in, in no time he was invite do the ??? ( administration ??) where he was asked that that beavior was intolerable. He was surprised he said, for he thought it was that way, like he saw in the movies. Weel, I took it as true, so I sell the fish as it was sold to me…

 

[bigfootbob]

I agree with 99% of what you say.

Nevertheless, the USA is eager to say other countries what to do: Korea, Vietnam, Panama, Cuba, Iraq, Afganistan, Somalia, Liberia, just to mention the military intervention in those countries.

I agree, it’s ridiculous

Now, why is the USA so sensitive to change its one ways when something is wrong? Is the USA Constitution above all suspition? Do the USA citizens consider the “american way of life” the model which should be copied but not corrected?

I think the American way of life does need to be corrected, but the second amendment does not. We need to get back to the basic principles that this country was built on, which includes the constitution and the second amendment.

Why wont USA citizens change the Constitution if if the Constitution was made today, it probably would not include the 2nd amendment? Would they feel humiliated?

I think it would be included if you had the right people in office, but I don’t think a lot of the people in office right now would have been smart enough to think of it.

I know the movies do not reflect American Society…

They may not reflect it, but they influence it way too much.

 

[bbarrick8383]

Nevertheless, the USA is eager to say other countries what to do: Korea, Vietnam, Panama, Cuba, Iraq, Afganistan, Somalia, Liberia, just to mention the military intervention in those countries.

Personally, I wish our government would cut this out. We can’t afford it anymore, let those countries deal with their own problems. With some exceptions such as S. Korea, I think we should pull our troops out and send N. Korea a little note letting them know if they try and bomb S. Korea we will make them disappear for good. How long does the world have to put up with this dictatorship nonsense.

Do the USA citizens consider the “american way of life” the model which should be copied but not corrected?

No, we consider it unique and we love it. Our way of life was designed to support various personalities. The problem is, the document which provides that support the Constitution, is not being followed. So now we have big city liberals wanting to come to the country and tell us how to live. Fully automatic machine guns aren’t a problem in the country, why should we not be allowed to shoot them because you can’t keep the ghettos from being shot up?

Why wont USA citizens change the Constitution if if the Constitution was made today, it probably would not include the 2nd amendment? Would they feel humiliated?

I highly doubt it, the 2nd amendment was not intended solely to provide citizens a means to keep the government in check. To this day folks still hunt for food on a regular basis, I keep a freezer full of meat all year. It’s was also designed to give the individual maximum freedom as long as he is willing to accept full personal responsibility. This means I can have my guns and if I do something stupid I pay the price.

I know the movies do not reflect American Society. I tell you a tue joke. A studen from a country I will not mention went to LA University and in the first weeks was inviting all the girls on sight ti sleep with him. Of course, with complaint raining in, in no time he was invite do the ??? ( administration ??) where he was asked that that beavior was intolerable. He was surprised he said, for he thought it was that way, like he saw in the movies. Weel, I took it as true, so I sell the fish as it was sold to me…

I’d say music has more of an influence on culture in our society. It reflects it in many ways, but spreads it and helps it grow as well. Listen to rappers, even in their music, they talk about people wanting to carry guns just because famous rappers carry guns. Country music has it’s influences as well.

 

[SanAgustin]

exnihilo’s statement on this thread really take this debate to a new level of unreal, I find it both surprising and a bit disappointing that nobody replied to them.

What is this cummulative effect? If 3 billion people vote for something and you are the sole vote against it what effect have you had? None. You have registered your opinion but done nothing more than that. Registering your opinion makes people feel good. That is the beauty of democracy in the minds of the rulers.

Voting and participatory democracy doesn’t matter, owning a gun matters.

You’ll have to convince me that democracy has any value. I’m a monarchist. And I arrived at this point of view after much study and consideration. For a Christian it shouldn’t be too hard to see my point of view. With God you get no vote. God is a monarch, so monarchy cant be bad in and of itself. The idea that the mass of sinful man can make good decisions is not something that is clear from Christian thinking.

So democracy has no value, poster also implies it might be incompatible with Christianity.

He describes himself as a monarchist, an ironic thing to say as a supporter of the 2nd amendment … or a supporter of the idea of the United States of America. One has to wonder if this person even agrees with the Declaration of Independence!!!

I’ve never said that guns are the only way to political change. They are a last resort, obviously. Of course what is not known is how much the fear of armed citizens has kept government somewhat in check.

There are no examples because what keeps the government in check is the separations of powers and the constitution.

If you read my earlier posts you’ll see that I do believe citizens should be able to own RPGs, tanks and any other weapon. To make my point again there is plenty of evidence that governments are the least responsible moral agents and should not at all be trusted to use these weapons rightly since they almost never do.

I think people who believe in private ownership (unregulated) for RPG like weapons is a really disturbing thing to even consider seriously.

 

[The_Joe]

So democracy has no value, poster also implies it might be incompatible with Christianity.

He describes himself as a monarchist, an ironic thing to say as a supporter of the 2nd amendment … or a supporter of the idea of the United States of America. One has to wonder if this person even agrees with the Declaration of Independence!!!

.

Democracy is a joke and further proof as to why the founders referred to us as The Great American Experiment. In fact, had Washington not been the first president, Charles III probably would had been the first monarch in the United States. A Stuart monarchy would be better then living life looking down the barrel of an expanding House of Windsor power grab.

Also, the Declaration of Independence has been meaningless for a very long time. After all, can you name a social program that doesn’t contradict the law’s of nature and of natures God or hasn’t failed in England already. America has also had more Czars then Russia ever did. What makes that funny is that the House of Romanov and the House of Windsor are/were cousins. Lets hope The Great Monarch shows up fast.

 

[Wardog]

I agree with 99% of what you say.

Now, why is the USA so sensitive to change its one ways when something is wrong? Is the USA Constitution above all suspition? Do the USA citizens consider the “american way of life” the model which should be copied but not corrected?

Why wont USA citizens change the Constitution if if the Constitution was made today, it probably would not include the 2nd amendment? Would they feel humiliated?
.

If we were to write the Constitution today, the 2nd Amendment would read " The right of US citizens to bear arms is absolute and not open to any limitations. And this time we mean it."

 

[StarFireKK]

As I said it depends on the school. But in general, engineering students are exposed to the same anti-christian ideologies as all other students- because at least most schools require engineering students to take some non-engineering courses. (Of course ideology good or bad- can be spread in an engineering class as well). Engineering students at most schools are also exposed to the campus culture that exists outside the classroom.

Of the top of my head I’d say the vast majority of American colleges and universities teach students:
-Fornication, contraception and abortion are all fine.
-Christianity is an outmoded and closeminded world view.

You find a lot of marxists on the staff at universities. As well as many others who adhere believe what marxism teaches but call themselves something else- feminists, environmentalists, “progressives”, humanists, atheists, etc, etc.

Most schools have men and women living next door to each other and sharing bathrooms. Drunkeness and Fornication are accepted as a normal part of the “college experience”.

-Again- at most schools. There are exceptions, but in my experience they are rare.

Pax.

So…where are you not going to be expose to those ideas? I can make the same argument about most work environments, most civic organizations, most tee-ball parents and even my supermarket.

What are you going to do? Sit in the house with the doors and windows bolted shut? Because that seems to be the type of life you are advocating.

You also aren’t giving those college kids a lot of credit. It is not like their minds are flypaper and as soon as an idea comes in contact with it it is stuck there forever. They are capable of thinking for themselves. Most students I know got annoyed when a professor would get on their soapbox and preach about their worldview. If you were taking challenging classes you needed that time to understand the material and get the direction you needed on the homework. If you were taking boring classes you were playing Farmville or sleeping.

 

[Dan_Daly]

So…where are you not going to be expose to those ideas? I can make the same argument about most work environments, most civic organizations, most tee-ball parents and even my supermarket.

What are you going to do? Sit in the house with the doors and windows bolted shut? Because that seems to be the type of life you are advocating.

You also aren’t giving those college kids a lot of credit. It is not like their minds are flypaper and as soon as an idea comes in contact with it it is stuck there forever. They are capable of thinking for themselves. Most students I know got annoyed when a professor would get on their soapbox and preach about their worldview. If you were taking challenging classes you needed that time to understand the material and get the direction you needed on the homework. If you were taking boring classes you were playing Farmville or sleeping.

You are quite correct. The dangerous ideas found in many colleges and universities are also found lots of other places. For one thing, the moral corruption in the education establishment starts much earlier- grade school, junior high, high school. That’s one of the many reasons I homeschool my children.

One should be careful about one’s work environment and what civic organizations they participate in or support. I’d also agree that the moral dangers present in youth sports and the supermarket are real, and one’s I’ve thought about and discussed with my wife.

I am not however advocating bolting all the doors and windows

I advocate what countless Saints have advocated. Choose friends wisely. Seek to surround oneself with Catholic men and women of good character. Minister to the world, but do not become overwhelmed by it. There is a difference between how one does this when talking about a child vs an adult properly formed in the faith. We all need to pray for wisdom, and understand that we can’t help anyone if we fall away from the Faith ourselves.

There are good Catholics at colleges. There have always been men and women who live the faith, no matter how degraded and sinful their society is. However, the evidence points to the fact that most Catholics do not live out the faith. Most don’t go to Mass on Sundays. Most think contraception is fine. Very many think sex outside of marriage is fine. And on and on.

Pax and God Bless.

 

[exnihilo]

You also aren’t giving those college kids a lot of credit.

Nor should anyone. My grandfather had only nine years of schooling and he was better educated than most college grads today. When you look at tests of basic knowledge college grads score abysmally. Think about what percentage of our population now graduates from college and how few can identify the countries we are at war with on a map. Despite a larger percentage of our population getting not only a full twelve years of schooling but also four to six years of college the level of education our newspapers write and politicians speak to has declined.

I remember taking an into symbolic logic class. I found it to be easy and second nature. Most of my classmates seemed to struggle with basic logic. I guess it is possible that those who were already great at logic did not take such classes, but from my experience I seriously doubt it.

It is not like their minds are flypaper and as soon as an idea comes in contact with it it is stuck there forever. They are capable of thinking for themselves.

Yes, but education has always been in large part about indoctrination. It is a great lie that the purpose of education is to broaden minds. You score well on school tests by writing down the answer the teacher wants. Subtle repetition can have a great effect as well.

Most students I know got annoyed when a professor would get on their soapbox and preach about their worldview.

Extreme indoctrination of ideas that are not the norm can turn people off. The trouble is the norm today is a wretched evil. What is accepted as truth, especially moral truth, today is terrible. The droning on about the norm that no one is bothered by is what is most dangerous.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

Two mental experiments as called by Einstein. We cannot go inside the Sum to make experiments, so we may make mental experiments, as Einstein said.

And a straight question.

First:

1. Let us suppose that the American People voted down the 2nd Ammendment, that all citizens surrendered that weapon and the the police desarmed all criminals. Would the USA live, quotidian routines and heppiness be worse, the same or better?
2. Only for American citizens: I know that the resolution would have to go to the individual States and so on. But suppose that the thing would be solve by a referendum. You, you who read this, how would you think the Americans vote? How many percent YES, lets remove the amendment, NO, do not remove the 2nd amendment. For instance: Yes-50%; No-50%:
3. One straight question for USA citizens: How would you vote: yes or no?

 

[Hastrman]

1. Let us suppose that the American People voted down the 2nd Ammendment, that all citizens surrendered that weapon and the the police desarmed all criminals. Would the USA live, quotidian routines and heppiness be worse, the same or better?
2. Only for American citizens: I know that the resolution would have to go to the individual States and so on. But suppose that the thing would be solve by a referendum. You, you who read this, how would you think the Americans vote? How many percent YES, lets remove the amendment, NO, do not remove the 2nd amendment. For instance: Yes-50%; No-50%:
3. One straight question for USA citizens: How would you vote: yes or no?

I’d vote no. The police would not be able to disarm all criminals—we’ve tried that, for good and bad reasons (the first American gun control laws were designed solely to keep weapons out of the hands of Blacks). Doesn’t work.

Have you read the analysis of gun ownership and crime by the economist John Lott, More Guns, Less Crime?

It’s arguably the definitive text on the question.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Two mental experiments as called by Einstein. We cannot go inside the Sum to make experiments, so we may make mental experiments, as Einstein said.

And a straight question.

First:

1. Let us suppose that the American People voted down the 2nd Ammendment, that all citizens surrendered that weapon and the the police desarmed all criminals. Would the USA live, quotidian routines and heppiness be worse, the same or better?
2. Only for American citizens: I know that the resolution would have to go to the individual States and so on. But suppose that the thing would be solve by a referendum. You, you who read this, how would you think the Americans vote? How many percent YES, lets remove the amendment, NO, do not remove the 2nd amendment. For instance: Yes-50%; No-50%:
3. One straight question for USA citizens: How would you vote: yes or no?

1. I don’t deal in hypotheticals.
2. I think that the US vote split would be roughly Yes - 65%, No - 25%, Undecided - 10% (there are always about 10% of people who can’t make their minds up about anything)
3. I would vote no. I have no interest in having the government “look after me”.

 

[bbarrick8383]

1. Let us suppose that the American People voted down the 2nd Ammendment, that all citizens surrendered that weapon and the the police desarmed all criminals. Would the USA live, quotidian routines and heppiness be worse, the same or better?

Worse. Gun control laws only control the guns of law abiding citizens. It would be free reign for the criminals who then could do whatever they want to the citizenry without fear of a retaliation from the victim.

1. Only for American citizens: I know that the resolution would have to go to the individual States and so on. But suppose that the thing would be solve by a referendum. You, you who read this, how would you think the Americans vote? How many percent YES, lets remove the amendment, NO, do not remove the 2nd amendment. For instance: Yes-50%; No-50%:

The thought is scary.

1. One straight question for USA citizens: How would you vote: yes or no?

Not only no, but hell no.

 

[SanAgustin]

Surprisingly, I would probably vote no … I don’t think private ownership for self defense is wrong at all.

However I do believe they could be even more regulated, but I also believe we should be honest about it and it’s not something that does much to protect us against the government.