2nd gay bishop for Episcopal Church

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AlaricTeudisson said:
Gamewell,
That is such a load of horse hockey. You just threw all Protestants under the bus with your comment. There are plenty of Protestants (and I would say the majority), certainly the majority of Anglicans, who do not think as you and your parish does.

You can uphold Abortion, pluralism, unitarianism and a twisted view of marriage as your standard all you like. As for me and my house (and the majority of Protestants) we will serve the Lord.

Unbelievable,

Jeff
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Jeff,

No one was thrown under the bus; if you took the time to read the entire post you would have seen towards the bottom where I indicated that I was not speaking for the Episcopal Church, rather as a member of the church.

Unbelievable.

Gamewell45
 
gamewell45 said:
I don’t see it as much as an issue as others might. They said it was the end of the Episcopal Church when they permitted Women to become Priests; they said it was the end of the church when Gene V. Robinson became a Bishop and guess what? We’re still here; well, a few parishes and clergy went on their way. So be it. Change often does not come easy.

I wish her all the best.
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“A few parishes and clergy?” Really? From a 9 December article by George Conger, found at this link:
Average Sunday attendance grew slowly from 1997 to 2002 in the American Episcopal Church, rising from 841,445 to 846,640. However in the five years following the consecration of Gene Robinson as Bishop of New Hampshire and an intensification of the church’s internal divisions, attendance has declined by 14 per cent to 727,822.
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So from a six tenths of one percent growth over 5 years, TEC has gone to a 14% decline over 5 years. That is a 23 fold change in the rate, and a shift in its direction to decline. So yes, TEC is “still here,” but that’s not quite the whole story.

These are TEC’s own figures, by the way.

Blessings,

Gerry
 
Before Robinson’s ordination, the Episcopalian’s actual membership declined some 44% over the last 40 years–second in the US only to the even more liberal (theologically and morally) United Churches of Christ. And “Catholics” liberals like Gary Wills think we should trod the same path!
 
Yes, liberal Catholics will always want the Church to “evolve” a.k.a. give in to the current social and political atmosphere rather than hold to True Christian teaching. Thanks be to God that the Catholic Church was never meant to be a democracy 😃

Peace and blessings,
Frank
 
Lion_of_Narnia said:
Before Robinson’s ordination, the Episcopalian’s actual membership declined some 44% over the last 40 years–second in the US only to the even more liberal (theologically and morally) United Churches of Christ. And “Catholics” liberals like Gary Wills think we should trod the same path!
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True, and none too good as well.

The feature of actual attendance figures is that it weeds out the titular members, who just use the designation when they need to fill in a form or tick a box. When people who actually were attending actually stop attending, the numbers involve the involved.

The manner of the departures is none too healthy, either. Some writers have discussed “Anglican schism.” More like “Anglican shattering,” into a whole lot of pieces.

As for why things like the LA election are taking place, with all the departures, well, who’s left to object to the flaunting of Christian teaching? Obviously too few to influence the organization.

Blessings,

Gerry
 
Gerry_Hunter said:
“A few parishes and clergy?” Really? From a 9 December article by George Conger, found at this link:

So from a six tenths of one percent growth over 5 years, TEC has gone to a 14% decline over 5 years. That is a 23 fold change in the rate, and a shift in its direction to decline. So yes, TEC is “still here,” but that’s not quite the whole story.

These are TEC’s own figures, by the way.

Blessings,

Gerry
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I won’t debate your figures since I don’t have any way of finding out past trends in the church, but for the sake of discussion lets say i agree with you that the numbers are down nationally. I think the Episcopal Church has had its rough times before; people and parishes have left to go out on their own or merged with another church; but as evidenced in the article you linked here, even the diocese in Bishop Gene V.Robinson’s area has experienced growth. Overtime the Episcopal Church will see the numbers swing back again.

And if the numbers don’t come back up, that’s fine as well; its not about numbers, its about people who want to be part of the church as it is; not what it used to be.

As I said earlier, change can be difficult.
 
Course, one could argue that even openly gay bisops in the Episcopalian ranks pales in comparison to outright heretics like John Shelby Spong. (Yes, the “H” word)
 
gamewell45 said:
Overtime the Episcopal Church will see the numbers swing back again.

And if the numbers don’t come back up, that’s fine as well; its not about numbers, its about people who want to be part of the church as it is; not what it used to be.

As I said earlier, change can be difficult.
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I think your being overly optomistic. The fact is that as the mainline’s become more and more liberal, the numbers drop. My feeling is that the numbers for the Episcopal Church will drop in a big way. The people who will lead the church tomarrow will be educated in the seminaries today. This is where the liberalism started. If the people in the pew’s have a higher moral baseline than the clergy, as defined by church teaching and the Bible, then dark days are on the horizon for the Episcopal church.

I predict that within 25 years, the Episcopal and Lutheran churches will merge, this to keep seminaries open and to support other infrastructure expenses. When church members are willing to give up old expensive/historic church buildings to leave the synod, this speaks volumes. Perhaps some of those will learn a lesson and involve themselves in local groups that are actually owned and operated by the local group.
 
Lion_of_Narnia said:
Course, one could argue that even openly gay bisops in the Episcopalian ranks pales in comparison to outright heretics like John Shelby Spong. (Yes, the “H” word)
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You have a good point. In theological terms, Gene Robinson and Mary Glasspool are more or less orthodox about most teachings. Spong (how he got through life with that name I don’t know) was even more radical than Bishop Pike, the bishop of California in the 1960s. I think both denied the trinity, I know Pike did, or said that the concept is irrelevant to modern Christians.

I met Pike twice and I liked him. Didn’t agree with him though.
 
AlaricTeudisson said:
The pattern I see is theological language that has had the traditional meaning dropped and new meanings substituted. For example, the Gospel message is no longer viewed as Christ dying for the forgiveness of broken humanity’s sins but instead it is all about loving & serving others (which is great, but it’s largely a Christless gospel). In my opinion the cross has become a tragedy and embarrassment for much of our leadership (in TEC). Its too ugly and messy. **Christ instead becomes a good man who preached against the oppressive social structures of his day and was tragically put to death.
**
Jeff
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Thank you for your thoughtful and insightful post.

Sadly, the same is happening to Catholics. Our Church is heckled as homophobic because we oppose same sex “marriage.” Our Cathedral is being picketed every Sunday in the Holy Season of Advent by same sex “marriage” advocates. Our Christian faith is under attack under the guise of “inclusiveness” and “diversity.”
 
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