3 Concerns about Liturgy in my parish

[grissom103]

I actually have several concerns but these are the three most recent and to the best of my knowledge occurred for the first time in my parish. One of them I addressed with my pastor but was not satisfied with the explanation. I’m looking for guidance and to see if my concerns are misplaced.

1. At the close of Forty Hours Adoration, a prayer service was held in the church. The program is titled “Solemn Vespers” This was not a Mass. After the homily in the section called Magnificat, an hymn was sung. During the singing, six young girls danced ballet movements. Four were in the aisle, two up near the altar. It was reverent as far as it goes, but my understanding is dance is not permitted during any liturgy in the West. My pastor said it’s only not permitted during Mass.
2. At Thanksgiving Day Mass for his homily my pastor read a letter from a parishoner. The parishoner wrote to say that while he will still come to Sunday Mass he will not attend a Thanksgiving Mass as he has nothing to be thankful this year. The letter detailed some job related issues, health issues, etc. My pastor said he didn’t know how to respond and was at a loss for words, something he says he rarely is. Then he said he heard this song and our choir director began to sing the entire thing. It’s called Grateful by John Bucchino. A version can be seen here: youtube.com/watch?v=0Zc6xDoQwgU
   I didn’t think secular music was permitted nor was this a permitted format for a homily.
3. At Sunday Mass two days ago, after the priest’s prayer to begin the intercessions instead of spoken intercessions the hymn There Is a Longing by Anne Quigley was sung. A cantor sang the verses as if they were the intercessions and the choir sang “Hear Our Prayer” and then the chorus. It can be seen here used as a communion hymn: youtube.com/watch?v=6-DfN4znnWQ

I like many of things my parish does very much but these all seemed inappropriate to me. I appreciate any responses. Thank you.

 

[corsair]

Not sure how to respond to you without making a Mod upset. So I’ll just say that I would find a more orthodox parish.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I actually have several concerns but these are the three most recent and to the best of my knowledge occurred for the first time in my parish. One of them I addressed with my pastor but was not satisfied with the explanation. I’m looking for guidance and to see if my concerns are misplaced.

1. At the close of Forty Hours Adoration, a prayer service was held in the church. The program is titled “Solemn Vespers” This was not a Mass. After the homily in the section called Magnificat, an hymn was sung. During the singing, six young girls danced ballet movements. Four were in the aisle, two up near the altar. It was reverent as far as it goes, but my understanding is dance is not permitted during any liturgy in the West. My pastor said it’s only not permitted during Mass.

I don’t know how to answser this although my opinion on it is to keep things like dancing reserved for outside the church. In my Byzantine parish, the Eparchy holds a weekend event for Catechisis. The last one was about the Feast of the Presentationof the Theotokos to the Temple. We had a little play organized by one of the priests who had a Broadway background, as well as a family who acted out the play. This was all done beautifuly, and it was done during that event and not during Liturgy or anything. So presentations can be used for Catechisis, but I don’t think it should be done during prayer time.

1. At Thanksgiving Day Mass for his homily my pastor read a letter from a parishoner. The parishoner wrote to say that while he will still come to Sunday Mass he will not attend a Thanksgiving Mass as he has nothing to be thankful this year. The letter detailed some job related issues, health issues, etc. My pastor said he didn’t know how to respond and was at a loss for words, something he says he rarely is. Then he said he heard this song and our choir director began to sing the entire thing. It’s called Grateful by John Bucchino. A version can be seen here: youtube.com/watch?v=0Zc6xDoQwgU
   I didn’t think secular music was permitted nor was this a permitted format for a homily.

The priest has pretty much free reigns during Homily. As long as he can deliver the teaching effectively, he can use any tool he has. There’s really not a list of dos and don’ts during Homily, except that only an ordained man can deliver the Homily. I’ve had priests who play the guitar and sing, tell jokes, some even act out a little bit. The important aspect of the Homily is they deliver a teaching to the people and they are pretty much allowed to use most tools at their disposal.

1. At Sunday Mass two days ago, after the priest’s prayer to begin the intercessions instead of spoken intercessions the hymn There Is a Longing by Anne Quigley was sung. A cantor sang the verses as if they were the intercessions and the choir sang “Hear Our Prayer” and then the chorus. It can be seen here used as a communion hymn: youtube.com/watch?v=6-DfN4znnWQ

I like many of things my parish does very much but these all seemed inappropriate to me. I appreciate any responses. Thank you.

Sorry I’m unfamiliar with the song. I will watch the video later and comment on it later.

 

[TheMc]

Not sure how to respond to you without making a Mod upset. So I’ll just say that I would find a more orthodox parish.

I second the motion.

 

[OraLabora]

1. At the close of Forty Hours Adoration, a prayer service was held in the church. The program is titled “Solemn Vespers” This was not a Mass. After the homily in the section called Magnificat, an hymn was sung. During the singing, six young girls danced ballet movements. Four were in the aisle, two up near the altar. It was reverent as far as it goes, but my understanding is dance is not permitted during any liturgy in the West. My pastor said it’s only not permitted during Mass.

Solem Vespers is of course a legitimate liturgy, part of the Liturgy of the Hours. A homily is optional at Vespers. The Magnificat is part of the requirements for Vespers. It sounds like it may have been sung, and the “hymn” you refer to was possibly the antiphon being sung, both of which are legitimate, and in fact preferred options at a solemn celebration of Vespers with the faithful present. It is difficult to say without knowing what exactly was sung, but definitely the Gospel Canticle (the Magnificat for Vespers) is not an option it is a requirement though it is an option to sing/chant it. The dancing sounds out of place though. Here’s what the GILH says about the parts of Vespers you’re referring to:

1. In a celebration with a congregation a short homily may follow the reading to explain its meaning, as circumstances suggest.

1. After the reading or homily a period of silence may be observed.

1. As a response to the word of God, a responsorial. chant or short responsory is provided; this may be omitted. Other chants with the same purpose and character may also be substituted in its place, provided these have been duly approved by the conference of bishops.

1. Next is the solemn recitation of the gospel canticle with its antiphon, that is, the Canticle of Zechariah at morning prayer and the Canticle of Mary (ed note: the Magnificat) at evening prayer. Sanctioned by age-old popular usage in the Roman Church, these canticles are expressions of praise and thanksgiving for our redemption. The antiphon for each canticle is indicated, according to the character of the day, the season, or the feast.

1. At Thanksgiving Day Mass for his homily my pastor read a letter from a parishoner. The parishoner wrote to say that while he will still come to Sunday Mass he will not attend a Thanksgiving Mass as he has nothing to be thankful this year. The letter detailed some job related issues, health issues, etc. My pastor said he didn’t know how to respond and was at a loss for words, something he says he rarely is. Then he said he heard this song and our choir director began to sing the entire thing. It’s called Grateful by John Bucchino. A version can be seen here: youtube.com/watch?v=0Zc6xDoQwgU
   I didn’t think secular music was permitted nor was this a permitted format for a homily.

Well I found the song schmaltzy and not to my tastes. I think he was trying to make a point, and it is not unusual for a priest to draw on secular life to teach a lesson. Still, I prefer seeing lessons on the actual readings of the day (drawing real-life examples is fine), but am willing to cut the priest some slack. He has to come up with a homily every week, and being human, maybe he was just creatively dry that week. It happens.

1. At Sunday Mass two days ago, after the priest’s prayer to begin the intercessions instead of spoken intercessions the hymn There Is a Longing by Anne Quigley was sung. A cantor sang the verses as if they were the intercessions and the choir sang “Hear Our Prayer” and then the chorus. It can be seen here used as a communion hymn: youtube.com/watch?v=6-DfN4znnWQ

I like many of things my parish does very much but these all seemed inappropriate to me. I appreciate any responses. Thank you.

Again not to my taste, but the intercessions is one area where there is some latitude. Intercessions may be chanted (they are at the abbey where I go to Mass, and the response is chanted by the faithful as well… not just the choir). The GIRM says:

1. In the Prayer of the Faithful, the people respond in a certain way to the word of God which they have welcomed in faith and, exercising the office of their baptismal priesthood, offer prayers to God for the salvation of all. It is fitting that such a prayer be included, as a rule, in Masses celebrated with a congregation, so that petitions will be offered for the holy Church, for civil authorities, for those weighed down by various needs, for all men and women, and for the salvation of the whole world.[67]

1. As a rule, the series of intentions is to be

a. For the needs of the Church;
b. For public authorities and the salvation of the whole world;
c. For those burdened by any kind of difficulty;
d. For the local community.

Nevertheless, in a particular celebration, such as Confirmation, Marriage, or a Funeral, the series of intentions may reflect more closely the particular occasion.

1. It is for the priest celebrant to direct this prayer from the chair. He himself begins it with a brief introduction, by which he invites the faithful to pray, and likewise he concludes it with a prayer. The intentions announced should be sober, be composed freely but prudently, and be succinct, and they should express the prayer of the entire community.

The intentions are announced from the ambo or from another suitable place, by the deacon or by a cantor, a lector, or one of the lay faithful.[68]

The people, however, stand and give expression to their prayer either by an invocation said together after each intention or by praying in silence.

So it does sound like this was a bit over the top at least for a Sunday Mass.

 

[grissom103]

Thank you for the responses so far. Yes, it was the antiphon that was sung after the homily at the close of Forty Hours. It was only the dancing that was of concern.

I don’t wish to confuse my own taste with what is correct. The song during the homily or as the intercessions don’t suit my tastes but I am concerned with their propriety. During the consecration, the piano will be played softly until the crescendo with “through Him, with Him…”. I’ve seen numerous times in these forums that music during the consecration isn’t permitted according to the GIRM. There are other examples.

On the other hand, I attended all three nights of the Tridiuum last Easter and it was exactly as proscribed in the USCCB documents on liturgy. My eight year old son decided to come with me and we found it very fulfilling.

And that’s why I’m looking for guidance. Thank you.

 

[Phemie]

During the consecration, the piano will be played softly until the crescendo with “through Him, with Him…”. I’ve seen numerous times in these forums that music during the consecration isn’t permitted according to the GIRM. There are other examples.

Ouch, of all the things you’ve given us, that one is the most worrisome. There is to be NO MUSIC during the presidential prayers, even if the priest sings/chants them.

*GIRM *32. The nature of the “presidential” texts demands that they be spoken in a loud and clear voice and that everyone listen with attention.44 Thus, while the priest is speaking these texts, there should be no other prayers or singing, and the organ or other musical instruments should be silent.

In an earlier item, the GIRM clarifies that spoken/sung is to be understood whenever one or the other word is used.

 

[m134e5]

1. At the close of Forty Hours Adoration, a prayer service was held in the church. The program is titled “Solemn Vespers” This was not a Mass. After the homily in the section called Magnificat, an hymn was sung. During the singing, six young girls danced ballet movements. Four were in the aisle, two up near the altar. It was reverent as far as it goes, but my understanding is dance is not permitted during any liturgy in the West. My pastor said it’s only not permitted during Mass.

Vespers is not Mass, but it is still a public liturgy of the Church and should be done according to the liturgical guidelines. There is no place for innovation like this in any liturgy.

1. At Thanksgiving Day Mass for his homily my pastor read a letter from a parishoner. The parishoner wrote to say that while he will still come to Sunday Mass he will not attend a Thanksgiving Mass as he has nothing to be thankful this year. The letter detailed some job related issues, health issues, etc. My pastor said he didn’t know how to respond and was at a loss for words, something he says he rarely is. Then he said he heard this song and our choir director began to sing the entire thing. It’s called Grateful by John Bucchino. I didn’t think secular music was permitted nor was this a permitted format for a homily.

I don’t think there is any rule against it being used for a homily, but it seems inappropriate to publicly read a parishioner’s private letter to him. Secular music should not be used at Mass. Secular references may be made to illustrate a point in the homily, but this should not extend beyond what is spoken from the pulpit.

1. At Sunday Mass two days ago, after the priest’s prayer to begin the intercessions instead of spoken intercessions the hymn There Is a Longing by Anne Quigley was sung. A cantor sang the verses as if they were the intercessions and the choir sang “Hear Our Prayer” and then the chorus.

I don’t know the song, but the prayers of intercession are not the place for a song.

I like many of things my parish does very much but these all seemed inappropriate to me. I appreciate any responses. Thank you.

If everything has been ok up to this point, I wouldn’t do anything else other than pray. If things get worse, you may want to find a more reverent church.

 

[OraLabora]

Vespers is not Mass, but it is still a public liturgy of the Church and should be done according to the liturgical guidelines. There is no place for innovation like this in any liturgy.

The dancing I agree. The antiphon and singing of the Magnificat are legit.

I don’t know the song, but the prayers of intercession are not the place for a song.

Agreed, although the intercessions may be chanted, with the response chanted as well; after all they are modelled after litanies which are chanted.

 

[jbuck919]

It seems to me that this parish is taking full advantage of those places in public gatherings for, er, worship where the rules are few and the options are pretty much open ended. A homily is by definition the free construction of the priest and need only relate to the theme of the Mass as expressed in the readings. The Prayer of the Faithful is to all intents and purposes written anew for each individual mass celebrated anywhere in the world and can fulfill its requirements within the guidelines while still exercising a great deal of liberty in the text. A service concluding the Forty Hours Devotion may have been (incorrectly, it seems) labeled Vespers but might in fact be interpreted as a post-devotion exercise that falls outside rubrical discipline, much like an instrumental postlude after the conclusion of Mass. It sounds like someone who likes to do their own thing is taking full advantage of the opportunities available without really breaking any rules.