3 conditions of mortal not their but aren't the damaging effects of sin still being done?

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Example:
A catholic couple is living together and plan to eventually get married. Though they are catholic they don’t believe that living together/premarital sex is really serious sin. It’s just not real. Or even a couple that knows nothing about sin. Even though they are not guilty of mortal sin because the 3 conditions are not there, isn’t the damage of sin still being done outwardly? In the world? I remember in one of Christopher West’s talk on TOB he made this analogy. If you give someone a glass of poison, tell them its water, they drink it and die. They did not commit the sin of suicide but they will still die.
The question:
Will all the negative effects of mortal sin still be there even when the one commiting the sin isn’t necessarily accountable for commiting a mortal sin because they didn’t know, didn’t believe, etc…? Is someone still living in a state of grace, in communion with Jesus even when they are commiting mortal sins that “aren’t mortal sins” because the conditions aren’t there?
 
yes the negative effects of the sin are still there. This is why it is the DUTY of BOTH the Church and society to condemn such behavior and make sure people know why it is condemned.

It might be worth noting, that just “believing it isn’t true” doesn’t exactly fit the criteria for “invincible ignorance”
 
In your example, your couple knows better. They just reject it.
Father Rocky was just talking about something similar on Relevant Radio this morning. His example was a couple using ABC who do not acknowledge it’s sinfulness. The couple still suffers the natural negative effect of incomplete intimacy from an occasion designed for greater intimacy. He talked of people who would tell him they were experiencing sadness etc in their lives. After talking with them, he may ask if they thought ABC had anything to do with it. “Oh no, no” would be the reply. Though they don’t know it, they can suffer from it.
That’s from Fr Rocky, the rest of this is my answer.
As far as the other effects, society suffers. Our fellow sister & brother are suffering from a gap in their human need for a truer intimacy. Their practice of it continues to contribute to the normalness of ABC to themsleves and possibly others. This can make hearing the fuller truth more difficult. We can imagine the loss of offspring as well as other negative effects.
On the spiritual realm, God’s will isn’t being done. Assuming they really don’t know better through no fault of their own, they are not guilty of or subject to the consequences of committing mortal sin. Grace remains in their soul.
Overall, I have to figure Satan claims a victory, by ignorance. . . again.
Deborah
 
Even given a hypothetical case where there is invincible ignorance and no culpability for an objective mortal sin, there is still an objective privation of a good that ought to be present, and the negative consequences of that privation still occur.
 
Deborah said:
In your example, your couple knows better. They just reject it.
Father Rocky was just talking about something similar on Relevant Radio this morning. His example was a couple using ABC who do not acknowledge it’s sinfulness. The couple still suffers the natural negative effect of incomplete intimacy from an occasion designed for greater intimacy. He talked of people who would tell him they were experiencing sadness etc in their lives. After talking with them, he may ask if they thought ABC had anything to do with it. “Oh no, no” would be the reply. Though they don’t know it, they can suffer from it.
That’s from Fr Rocky, the rest of this is my answer.
As far as the other effects, society suffers. Our fellow sister & brother are suffering from a gap in their human need for a truer intimacy. Their practice of it continues to contribute to the normalness of ABC to themsleves and possibly others. This can make hearing the fuller truth more difficult. We can imagine the loss of offspring as well as other negative effects.
On the spiritual realm, God’s will isn’t being done. Assuming they really don’t know better through no fault of their own, they are not guilty of or subject to the consequences of committing mortal sin. Grace remains in their soul.
Overall, I have to figure Satan claims a victory, by ignorance. . . again.
Deborah
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Sorry: Dumb question. What is ABC?
 
Yes, even though I am not aware of Church teaching that this or that action is a mortal sin, the devastating effects–in this case the damage to the self respect of the individuals and the harm to their marriage relationship–are still felt.

If my water supply becomes polluted I am damaged by the toxins when I drink it, whether or not I am aware of the problem, even if the water smells, looks and tastes okay to me. It takes an authority with proper equipment to test the water and find the source of the problem. Now once that is done, I can either accept or reject their recommendation. If I know on their testimony the water is bad, but continue to drink it because I don’t care or I don’t believe them, I am culpable. But either way, my body will suffer the toxic effects.

Take another example of an actual sin. I pick up a gun to shoot someone because I am an actor in a play and that is my role, the propmaster assures me it is a fake gun with no bullets. I shoot the “victim” and he dies, because someone substituted a real loaded gun. I am not guilty, and hopefully a full investigation of the facts will exonerate me, but the man is still dead. The loaded gun operates that way because that is what happens when you fire a gun at someone, the gun acts according to its nature.

Now say, the scene is about to start and someone warns me, hey, that is the wrong gun, it looks like a real one–I disregard the warning, and shoot anyway. My guilt is greater, although I still did not intend to commit a murder, because I had foreknowledge of a possible problem yet acted anyway.

the point is that people who act, and physical things that are acted upon, do so according to their nature. Whether or not we are aware of those effects, they still happen because they have to.

Sex creates a bond between the parties, and also procreates children. that is its nature. the purpose of the bond is to strengthen the relationship so that a strong vital family is created to support children that result. Trying to have sex in a way that frustrates or ignores its nature is going to to have bad consequences, whether or not the parties are aware of them, but the physical reality acts and is acted upon according to the laws of nature.
 
puzzleannie said:
Yes, even though I am not aware of Church teaching that this or that action is a mortal sin, the devastating effects–in this case the damage to the self respect of the individuals and the harm to their marriage relationship–are still felt.

If my water supply becomes polluted I am damaged by the toxins when I drink it, whether or not I am aware of the problem, even if the water smells, looks and tastes okay to me. It takes an authority with proper equipment to test the water and find the source of the problem. Now once that is done, I can either accept or reject their recommendation. If I know on their testimony the water is bad, but continue to drink it because I don’t care or I don’t believe them, I am culpable. But either way, my body will suffer the toxic effects.

Take another example of an actual sin. I pick up a gun to shoot someone because I am an actor in a play and that is my role, the propmaster assures me it is a fake gun with no bullets. I shoot the “victim” and he dies, because someone substituted a real loaded gun. I am not guilty, and hopefully a full investigation of the facts will exonerate me, but the man is still dead. The loaded gun operates that way because that is what happens when you fire a gun at someone, the gun acts according to its nature.

Now say, the scene is about to start and someone warns me, hey, that is the wrong gun, it looks like a real one–I disregard the warning, and shoot anyway. My guilt is greater, although I still did not intend to commit a murder, because I had foreknowledge of a possible problem yet acted anyway.

the point is that people who act, and physical things that are acted upon, do so according to their nature. Whether or not we are aware of those effects, they still happen because they have to.

Sex creates a bond between the parties, and also procreates children. that is its nature. the purpose of the bond is to strengthen the relationship so that a strong vital family is created to support children that result. Trying to have sex in a way that frustrates or ignores its nature is going to to have bad consequences, whether or not the parties are aware of them, but the physical reality acts and is acted upon according to the laws of nature.
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But what **are **the bad consequences? (the ones they will get in this life) - not what happens when they die.
 
I was speaking of bad consequences in this life.
Sex outside marriage damages the ability to form a strong bond within marriage, and secular statistics prove this, as divorce rates are highest, for those who have been promiscuous before marriage, and much higher for those who cohabited with each other before marriage, than among those who waited until after marriage to enjoy the goods of marriage.

the resultant social damage–the fallout from divorce, children raised in broken homes and without fathers, fact that women with children as the result of irregular relationships are most likely to be on welfare, and so forth, is still being assessed but is undeniable. All sin has social as well as personal consequences. Whether or not the people caught up in these sad situations know or admit there is sin involved, they all know and suffer from the consequences of their actions–or of the actions of others that have victimized them.
 
puzzleannie said:
I was speaking of bad consequences in this life.
Sex outside marriage damages the ability to form a strong bond within marriage, and secular statistics prove this, as divorce rates are highest, for those who have been promiscuous before marriage, and much higher for those who cohabited with each other before marriage, than among those who waited until after marriage to enjoy the goods of marriage.

the resultant social damage–the fallout from divorce, children raised in broken homes and without fathers, fact that women with children as the result of irregular relationships are most likely to be on welfare, and so forth, is still being assessed but is undeniable. All sin has social as well as personal consequences. Whether or not the people caught up in these sad situations know or admit there is sin involved, they all know and suffer from the consequences of their actions–or of the actions of others that have victimized them.
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OK. so what you are saying is that “statistically” there is a higher chance of divorce, and broken home, and that the probability they will be on welfare is higher.

So there is a connection there. But one can not assume that this will happen as an inevitable consequence. Question is: how do those of us who didn’t have sex before marriage know that those who didn’t wait have it worse off?
 
Thomfra asked,
“But one can not assume that this will happen as an inevitable consequence. Question is: how do those of us who didn’t have sex before marriage know that those who didn’t wait have it worse off?”

Well, those statistics you seem to dismiss can help. There will always be exceptions to the rule - but if you talk to those exceptions, you might learn something.

You can also look around for anecdotal evidence. You’ll find plenty, though you will probably have to make the connections yourself.

The connection I have made, through one teenage mistake and divorce, a long time sinning, and one real, sacramental marriage, is that, if sex is more important than the relationship between the two of you, you’re headed the wrong way. And that relationship must put the other’s spiritual welfare ahead of your own temporal desires.

That’s why my husband and I abstained for two years while the Church determined that my first wedding was null.

Read my sig line!

Ruthie
 
Ruthie said:
Thomfra asked,
“But one can not assume that this will happen as an inevitable consequence. Question is: how do those of us who didn’t have sex before marriage know that those who didn’t wait have it worse off?”

Well, those statistics you seem to dismiss can help. There will always be exceptions to the rule - but if you talk to those exceptions, you might learn something.

You can also look around for anecdotal evidence. You’ll find plenty, though you will probably have to make the connections yourself.

The connection I have made, through one teenage mistake and divorce, a long time sinning, and one real, sacramental marriage, is that, if sex is more important than the relationship between the two of you, you’re headed the wrong way. And that relationship must put the other’s spiritual welfare ahead of your own temporal desires.

That’s why my husband and I abstained for two years while the Church determined that my first wedding was null.

Read my sig line!

Ruthie
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Oh Ruthie, I totally agree with you (as most would) that no relationship built on sex will last. But it just doesn’t sound like this is the case with this young catholic couple who the poster has described.
 
This actually is the case with the couple in the original post. This applies to any couple. Catholic or not. The damage is being done. Even a “Catholic” couple who avoids sex before marriage as just a rule that they are called to follow as Catholics. If they don’t understand or believe the Church’s teachings on what marriage is supposed to be they will have a difficult time seeing the importance of it and thus living it out. There is much to say here but I need to collect my thoughts. Are there specific questions/points regarding the original post while I formulate my response? I am the original poster.
 
The effects of sin flow two ways - outward and inward. The outward flow from this hypothetical couple is scandal. “They’re supposed to be Catholics, but they’re living in sin!” That statement could lead (for instance) to someone thinking the Church has changed her stance on pre-marital sex, or to disrespecting the Church.

The inward flow can be the weakening of the bond, as earlier posters said. It depends on why they decided to have premarital sex.

Were they being “cafeteria Catholics,” picking and choosing which precepts of the Church they will obey? Then they have damaged themselves by being indifferent to why the Church teaches what she does. They have put their own opinion above the teachings of the Church. It’s hard to plead invincible ignorance in that case.

Were they nominal Catholics, who had little or no, or just bad, catechesis? If they were taught that the dread “spirit of Vatican II” said all that morality stuff was old hat, then they may indeed have been invincibly ignorant. In that case, if they were both putting the other’s spiritual welfare above everything else, then there is hope for “no damage,” assuming they learn the truth and repent and are absolved.

One kind of damage occurs in and out of the Church. Abstaining from premarital sex gives us good and necessary practice in resisting temptation. This is one of the strongest temptations there is, in this world of “instant gratification,” to have sex with the person you love, with whom it will shortly be “legal.”

But after they wed, there will be other temptations coming along, from pornography to that attractive co-worker. There will be plenty of people urging one on to go ahead and give in (I speak from experience). The strength built up from that premarital practice will make it much easier to resist those other temptations. It will strengthen those marital bonds.

The only way to “recover” from premarital sex is to realize the harm you were doing, even unknowingly, to your partner. That’s repentance. Once repenting, we all need absolution!

Ruthie
 
Ruthie said:
The effects of sin flow two ways - outward and inward. The outward flow from this hypothetical couple is scandal. “They’re supposed to be Catholics, but they’re living in sin!” That statement could lead (for instance) to someone thinking the Church has changed her stance on pre-marital sex, or to disrespecting the Church.

The inward flow can be the weakening of the bond, as earlier posters said. It depends on why they decided to have premarital sex.

Were they being “cafeteria Catholics,” picking and choosing which precepts of the Church they will obey? Then they have damaged themselves by being indifferent to why the Church teaches what she does. They have put their own opinion above the teachings of the Church. It’s hard to plead invincible ignorance in that case.

Were they nominal Catholics, who had little or no, or just bad, catechesis? If they were taught that the dread “spirit of Vatican II” said all that morality stuff was old hat, then they may indeed have been invincibly ignorant. In that case, if they were both putting the other’s spiritual welfare above everything else, then there is hope for “no damage,” assuming they learn the truth and repent and are absolved.

One kind of damage occurs in and out of the Church. Abstaining from premarital sex gives us good and necessary practice in resisting temptation. This is one of the strongest temptations there is, in this world of “instant gratification,” to have sex with the person you love, with whom it will shortly be “legal.”

But after they wed, there will be other temptations coming along, from pornography to that attractive co-worker. There will be plenty of people urging one on to go ahead and give in (I speak from experience). The strength built up from that premarital practice will make it much easier to resist those other temptations. It will strengthen those marital bonds.

The only way to “recover” from premarital sex is to realize the harm you were doing, even unknowingly, to your partner. That’s repentance. Once repenting, we all need absolution!

Ruthie
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Ruthie, It still all seems like speculation. How do you measure how strong a bond a couple has with/without premarital sex. I just struggle to see the problem…
 
Thomfra wrote: “How do you measure how strong a bond a couple has with/without premarital sex. I just struggle to see the problem…”

Well, without knowing each of them well and deeply, I can’t measure that bond. I can’t predict whether a marriage will be successful - and if I could, I wouldn’t, 'cuz divination is against the rules! 😉

If you can’t see how premarital sex can weaken the bond, then perhaps you have a blind spot. Read my second post again, and maybe you will see.

Possibly, your problem is with obedience and/or trust in the Church. I trust her, so my reaction to her teaching that premarital sex is wrong was, “Why? There must be a loving reason for this; what is it?”

When she teaches something contrary to my old, very worldly belief system, I have to take it on faith - i.e. trust the Church to be right - until I understand the love behind what she teaches.

HTH,
Ruthie
 
Ruthie said:
Well, without knowing each of them well and deeply, I can’t measure that bond. I can’t predict whether a marriage will be successful.
Ruthie
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Well there you go. You said it yourself. You don’t know. And there may well be cases where lack of premarital sex makes future married life harder. Building up expectations of “spiritual & mind blowing sex”. You know I saw a documentary (American) about these “keeping pure” couples. When they finally got married it took them ages to recondition themselves into thinking sex was ok. So there’s a potential negative side effect…Not to mention the fact they had spent years focussing on “we don’t have sex, and preaching it to eveybody”, and it was kind of an anitclimax in the end.
 
RGA123 said:
This actually is the case with the couple in the original post. This applies to any couple. Catholic or not. The damage is being done. Even a “Catholic” couple who avoids sex before marriage as just a rule that they are called to follow as Catholics. If they don’t understand or believe the Church’s teachings on what marriage is supposed to be they will have a difficult time seeing the importance of it and thus living it out. There is much to say here but I need to collect my thoughts. Are there specific questions/points regarding the original post while I formulate my response? I am the original poster.
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1865 Sin creates a proclivity to sin; it engenders vice by repetition of the same acts. This results in perverse inclinations which cloud conscience and corrupt the concrete judgment of good and evil. Thus sin tends to reproduce itself and reinforce itself, but it cannot destroy the moral sense at its root.
 
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