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DarinHamel
Guest
I have seen it go purgation, illumination and union and I have seen it go illumination, purgation and union. Which way do the more authoritative writers put it and why?
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DBT
Guest
Only way I’ve ever seen it is purgative, illuminative then unitive.
I’m re-reading the Spiritual Canticle by St. John of the Cross right now and the translator (Fr. Kavanaugh) has an interesting discussion in his introduction that breaks the poem down into these specific stages . . . and in the above order.
I might be mistaken, but I think it was Fr. Garigou-Lagrange (sp?) who first applied these classifications to St. John’s work. I don’t think the Saint used them himself in such a systematic way.
Dave.
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DBT
Guest
. . . going from memory here, but Fr. Kavanaugh in the intro to Spiritual Canticle identifies the illuminative way as those stanzas in the poem coinciding with the spritual betrothal and the unitive way to those relating to spiritual marriage. The purgative way pertains to everything that preceeds this.
Spiritual betrothal and marriage are the terms St. John and St. Teresa commonly used for all of this. I’ve also seen classifications like beginner, proficient and perfect (for example in the Cloud of Unknowing) that probably roughly equate to purgative, illuminative and unitive that other theologians use.
The more I think about it, Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange is probably the main authority for the terms you’re looking for. I think his book is called something like The Three Ages of the Spiritual Life. He applies a Thomist approach to St. John of the Cross.
Dave.
Spiritual betrothal and marriage are the terms St. John and St. Teresa commonly used for all of this. I’ve also seen classifications like beginner, proficient and perfect (for example in the Cloud of Unknowing) that probably roughly equate to purgative, illuminative and unitive that other theologians use.
The more I think about it, Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange is probably the main authority for the terms you’re looking for. I think his book is called something like The Three Ages of the Spiritual Life. He applies a Thomist approach to St. John of the Cross.
Dave.
J
jimmy
Guest
Purgation, ilumination, and then union seems more accurate to me. You are first purged of all your attachments and then you are illiminated by grace and made perfect, and then finally you come into union with God.
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DarinHamel
Guest
I am very familiar with Garrigou-Lagrange and he does put them in the order of purgation, illumination and union. But he draws on the sources of St Augustine and Dionysius.
That makes sense when you look at the message of repent and then convert and then go to heaven. Three stages too.
That makes sense when you look at the message of repent and then convert and then go to heaven. Three stages too.
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Andrew_11
Guest
What do you mean when you say, “come into union with God”?
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JimG
Guest
I think the most recent order is given this way:
–detachment from the internet
–purgation
–illumination
–union (contemplation)
I’m still working on the first one.
–detachment from the internet
–purgation
–illumination
–union (contemplation)
I’m still working on the first one.
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jimmy
Guest
Salvation from the Catholic perspective. The Catholic teaching of salvation is that it is a process where we are made more like Christ. In order to enter heaven(which would be union with God) we must be perfected. So first comes purgation, or purification from our temptations. Next comes illumination, in which we recieve grace that perfects us and gives us true love for God and our neighbors. Then comes union with God, or in other words heaven.
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jimmy
Guest
hahaha, I am still working on that too. You might be the mystic of our times JimG.
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b_justb
Guest
I am, of course, the most authoritative author I know …
What can a person purge if he has not been illuminated first? What does he toss out, and why would he? The cart goes behind the horse.
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Andrew_11
Guest
You dont mean that we become one with God, as in buddhism and becoming one with the universal spirit, you mean being with him in heaven, correct?
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jimmy
Guest
I do not know or mean what the Bhuddists say. Our job is to become like Christ. Since Christ was perfect, it is our job to become perfect. Being with Him in heaven means more than just being there. We must be perfect in order to enter heaven as Revelation says.
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Joysong
Guest
Hello Andrew,
Since we have been discussing in this thread the Three Ages of the Interior Life, you can find Father Lagrange’s description of the Unitive Way here: It might help answer your question, though other saints, especially St. Teresa of Avila, have written about it in more detail.
christianperfection.info/tta91.htm#bk4
Carole
Since we have been discussing in this thread the Three Ages of the Interior Life, you can find Father Lagrange’s description of the Unitive Way here: It might help answer your question, though other saints, especially St. Teresa of Avila, have written about it in more detail.
christianperfection.info/tta91.htm#bk4
Carole
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DarinHamel
Guest
Thats the way I see it too. I think the bible agrees with us too.
Look at this:
Birth-40 days-Presentation
Baptism-40 days-Ministry
Resurrection-40 days-Ascension
These seem to symbolize illumination, purgation and union if we use the life of Christ as the mystical model.
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jimmy
Guest
The thing is, you can’t recieve what you can’t hold. You can’t recieve Grace if you have no capacity for it. A person who steels must stop steeling before he can begin to give. Being free from sin is not equivalent to perfection. You must learn to love perfectly in order to be perfect. This perfection comes after you free yourself from sin in most cases. There are exceptions though, as in pretty much every case.
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DBT
Guest
Well I goofed . . . such are the risks of trying to quote from memory I guess
The actual terms the author of The Cloud of Unknowing uses are: Common, Special and Singular. He also describes a 4th state, the Perfect, however that’s primarily for our life in heaven.
So that leaves us with 3 classifications of stages so far that, in my mind at least, speak of similiar concepts:
Purgative/Illuminative/Unitive
Beginner/Proficient/Perfect
Common/Special/Singular
To my understanding, the common theme of those stages listed in the middle column relate to what St. Teresa describes as the Spiritual Betrothal. If one understands this as a very high degree of contemplation – but not yet attaining to that of transforming union – then illumination would seem to logically come after purgation and before union in these schemes.
Since I’ve got The Cloud open, this is what he has to say. He begins by saying “I have arranged these stages in a definite sequence. This is because I believe that our Lord in his great mercy is calling you to advance by these steps.” Briefly, his definitions are:
Common: “manner of the Christian life in a day-to-day mundane existence.” (Sounds inviting, huh?
)Special: “And so, with exquisite kindness, he awakened desire within you, and binding it fast with the leash of love’s longing, drew you closer to himself into what I have called the more Special manner of living. He called you to be his friend and, in the company of his friends, you learned to live the interior life.”
Singular: “Yes, you live now at the deep solitary core of your being, learning to direct your loving desire toward the highest and final manner of living.”
While this is focused on The Cloud, the Saint’s I’ve read seem to be pretty consistent in how they describe all this. Just my opinion . . .
Dave.
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DarinHamel
Guest
In my idea God calls us first by revealing His truth to the soul which is illumination, then that causes us such pain we repent and then cooperate and purge through the help of that recieved grace that is purgation until we are made ready for God to draw us into union.
Am I having a problem with semantics? I understand the Doctors of the Church say I am wrong but hey, questioning isn’t a sin.
Am I having a problem with semantics? I understand the Doctors of the Church say I am wrong but hey, questioning isn’t a sin.
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jimmy
Guest
No question is not a sin. The problem that I have with what you are saying is that it assumes that after purgation we are perfect, but as I understand it(and I may be wrong) purgation is only the begining of perfection. Perfection(we can’t be perfect as God is but it is possible that we could be as the angels are) comes when we learn to love as God loves, or in a similar way. In my viewpoint purgation is just the seperation of us from sin and the desire to sin. Illumination is the further giving of grace which comes to fill that void with faith, hope and charity, mainly charity. I think this is the view of John of the Cross in his books and of Walter Hilton in his Scale of Perfection. I can’t speak for any of the others.
Of course things aren’t as straight forward as I have tried to say it. There are exceptions to what I have said and I would also say that many people recieve some illumination that is the cause of their purgation.
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DarinHamel
Guest
Not perfect, but after we repent in reconciliation we are in a state of grace.
DBT Wrote:
Special: “And so, with exquisite kindness, he awakened desire within you, and binding it fast with the leash of love’s longing, drew you closer to himself into what I have called the more Special manner of living. He called you to be his friend and, in the company of his friends, you learned to live the interior life.”
This is my favorite mystical book. Looks like I haven’t learned much Orthodoxy. How about this?
All true Catholic mysticism is Eucharistic. To Take, To Bless, To Break and To Give is the Eucharistic prayer given to us by Jesus Christ. The process of transubstantiation also outlines the mystical life as a four-part transformation of a person through Purgation, Illumination, Dark-Night and Union. God joyfully takes us in His hands just as a priest takes bread in his hands (repent and convert). Just as the priest blesses the bread, God blesses us with an Illumination (purify and empower). The priest breaks the bread and God breaks us in the sorrowful Dark Night (renounce and transfigure). Then the priest gives the bread to the people, just as God then gloriously sends his new Apostle into the world to feed His sheep and when the work is complete then God calls His child home in Union (death and spiritualization).
DBT Wrote:
Special: “And so, with exquisite kindness, he awakened desire within you, and binding it fast with the leash of love’s longing, drew you closer to himself into what I have called the more Special manner of living. He called you to be his friend and, in the company of his friends, you learned to live the interior life.”
This is my favorite mystical book. Looks like I haven’t learned much Orthodoxy. How about this?
All true Catholic mysticism is Eucharistic. To Take, To Bless, To Break and To Give is the Eucharistic prayer given to us by Jesus Christ. The process of transubstantiation also outlines the mystical life as a four-part transformation of a person through Purgation, Illumination, Dark-Night and Union. God joyfully takes us in His hands just as a priest takes bread in his hands (repent and convert). Just as the priest blesses the bread, God blesses us with an Illumination (purify and empower). The priest breaks the bread and God breaks us in the sorrowful Dark Night (renounce and transfigure). Then the priest gives the bread to the people, just as God then gloriously sends his new Apostle into the world to feed His sheep and when the work is complete then God calls His child home in Union (death and spiritualization).
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Joysong
Guest
Dear Darin,
You post an initial question when you begin a thread, as a seeker, and then rebut, as fact, the opinion you previously conceived.
The same goes for the last idea you presented - a private mystical concept.
Yes, it is good to question if one is a seeker of eternal Truth, but to override Truth in favor of one’s own opinion and then circulate it using the bible to substantiate a personal insight, does a lot of harm to the faithful.
You post an initial question when you begin a thread, as a seeker, and then rebut, as fact, the opinion you previously conceived.
Darin, you have posted frequently on the forum a lot of things that would fall under the category of “private revelations,” obtained in your mystical prayer life. It is not a sin to share them, but it is not wise to ascribe them to the bible. Better, probably, to just say that it is simply your own opinion.
The same goes for the last idea you presented - a private mystical concept.
Carole
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