3 Mystical Ways, what order?

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Would divine intervention bring illumination first? Could the order be determined by how and type of Grace received? Is there only one order? Thank You, Tim
I think it does depend on what grace is recieved. It also depends on how you view the world. There are gut, heart and head people and each views the world from a different perspective. Then you have St Teresa dividing up the spiritual live into seven rooms. So it gets complicated when we would all perfer simplicity.

Fr Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P. was very controversial because he broke things down into simple catagories and made graphs and charts. He didn’t go as far as he could of in my opinion because he had a career to protect.

For those interested the professor keeping me honest is Dr Fastiggi. If you have a copy of A STILL SMALL VOICE by Fr Benedict Groeschel, C.F.R. then look on the back and you will see his name and opinion of Fr. Groeschel’s book. He obviously moved to Detroit and currently teaches at Sacred Heart Seminary and is the Censor on the book I wrote on Catholic Mystical Theology.
 
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DarinHamel:
JOYSONG, you are brilliant and compassionate. My personality profile says I am a natural leader and an innovator. I dislike the current mystical model that has been in vogue for 400 years and maybe we can stretch it back to Augustine but I feel obliged to change what I dont like.

This is an apologetics website and if my crazy ideas lead others astray then you better kick the protestants off this site too. And the athiests, pagans and then we can stop all debate and apologetics. :confused:
DarinHamel:

You might wish to look at Thomas Mertin’s,Wisdom of the Desert, which is a selection of sayings from the Verba Seniorum or the Sayings of the Desert Fathers.

This contains an introduction to a form of Spirituality that’s very common in Easter Orthodox Monasticism called Hesychasm. After you’ve read the Merton book, I think you might want to want to discuss it with Fr. Ambrose and some of the other Eastern Orthodox posters here.

This might turn out to be the alternative, at least in terms of terminology and how it’s explained, that you’ve been looking for.

If you want to ask questions, fine, but I’d stop arguing over what’s the proper way to grow in our Lord. That’s what the other guy what’s us to do.

In Christ, Michael
 
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Darin:
If its Gods work then in my experience then I will have to suffer and agonize and fight tooth and nail for every bit of ground God wants me to gain for Him! Anger helps sometimes.
Not really, but abrasiveness to fellow Catholics does reveal the bent of the man. Those who are discerning have already left the thread, and Darin may now fulfill the secret desires for which he baited the original question.
 
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Darin:
I have met many who left the Church because they had a profound spiritual awakening and when they couldn’t find or understand the answers the Church offered they left and joined a group that did offer answers however crazy they are.

The Roman Catholic Church has a major problem explaining the Mystical Way. This is a fact that is proven by all the ex-Catholics at yoga ashrams, ufo cult headquarters and and every other crack pot group that can explain things, even if they are wrong.
Many months ago, I saved this document to my hard drive. In our day, as Darin related above, there are many “mystics” who become disgruntled and leave the church. Although I had decided to leave this thread, I felt moved to share this important document for the Catholic community here who have difficulty sorting out authenticity. It is an excellent read!

catholicdoors.com/isit/isitfore.htm

From the foreward:
Note: For the purpose of this writing, the person who is alleged to be experiencing a profound spiritual experience, be it a healer, a locutionist, a seer or a visionary, all shall be referred to as a “mystic.” A “mystic” is defined as one who professes to undergo a profound spiritual experience.
 
Hi Darin -

You’ve repeatedly asked for help . . . so I’m going to take one last stab at it before leaving this thread. Personally, I think you have been given a tremendous amount of help so far . . . I pray you’ll hear me in this last attempt.

So great, you’re writing a book! If you’re writing a book, it’s probably safe to assume you want it published. If it’s published, perhaps you’d like to sell a few copies. No, from what I gather from my understanding of the premise behind your theory you’re looking to do much more.

So I’m going to take off my amateur student of mysticism hat for the time being and put on my “businessman” hat to try and make my point.

I wonder if you have any idea what a wonderful opportunity you had with this thread? If I were the brand manager at Kelloggs coming out with a new brand of Wheaties, one of the first things I’d do is conduct a focus group study of my prospective customers.

Oh sure I’d want to know what they like about my new Wheaties . . . but I’d also want to know what they don’t like. And in the end, understanding the objections of my potential customers will take me much farther toward reaching my business objective than simply looking at the “good” things they have to say. Ignoring objections places blinders over our eyes . . . it means we aren’t listening . Worse, getting arguementive and defensive about it simply drives customers away. Obviously, in the bussiness world this is the kiss of death.

So in the likely event you’re thinking “what in the world does this have to do with me?” . . . let me try and bring home the message behind this little parable with a simple question: Isn’t this precisely the type of research you should be doing with this thread?

The very fact you’re talking to committed Catholics who actually take time out of their day to write about their faith makes us, in business terms, opinion leaders and early adoptors. In short, we are your very target audience! 🙂

In that light, I wonder if you have any idea how truely helpful posters on this thread have been? Go back and re-read what people like Carol, Springbreeze, Jimmy and all the others are saying. You need to understand them. Note for the record I didn’t say agree.

Remember this, you will never reach a broader audience if you fail with the opinion leaders and early adopters . . . for it is acceptance from them that will bestow upon you the authority and credibility you need to make your ideas more widely known. Word of mouth is what you’ll need - and who do you think is going to spread the word?

Which brings me to my final point. To pull off this grand task you’ve taken on yourelf, the very thing you’ll need is authority and credibility. The first step in this, IMHO, is to work on your approach toward the very people you need the most. Right now I can’t even give the time of day to your ideas because I can’t see past the tone you’re using. Quite frankly, you aren’t speaking like someone who has climbed the mystical mountain . . . rather, you sound more like all of us mere mortals who’ve had our pride pricked.

I hope you can accept this in the spirit it’s indended. I wish you the very best luck in your efforts.

Dave.
 
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Joysong:
Not really, but abrasiveness to fellow Catholics does reveal the bent of the man. Those who are discerning have already left the thread, and Darin may now fulfill the secret desires for which he baited the original question.
For the third time attack my ideas and not me! What is wrong you? Is it your desire to appear superior at all costs? I am not a saint, I am just a guy who drinks beer and plays football on the weekends with his friends. I don’t even care to appear as a saint.

I am not posting private revelations, I am trying to simplify our mystical tradition so the averge person doesn’t have to wade through thousands of pages meant for academics or writings meant for Europeans in the middle ages.
 
DBT,
You posted as I was writing. My target audience is actually fallen away Catholics who left the True Faith for UFO cults, Gurus, Evangelical Churches, Channelers and other strange groups that say they have the truth but in fact dont. That is the calling that I believe God has called me to.

In a perfect world (Joysongs) when a Catholic has a mystical experience they go to their priest and he explains it and encourages the approporate thing. In the real world the priest is over worked and had only one or two courses in mystical theology 20 years ago and he usually doesn’t give good advice beyond, “Read this book.”

So then they read it and if they understood it great, but if not they are more likely to pick up a book on Chakras or Chi Gong than one by Garrigou-Lagrange. While Joysong may say these people who join a kundalini cult didn’t have an authentic experience in the first place I say we can be given profound graces and still retain free will and royally screw up.

Thank you for you calm and reasoned response Dave. In every forum that I join it seems I tick off the women. I understand my approach is intense and I get worked up, but this is my lifes work. I will not compromise the task I believe God has given me.
 
Hi Darin -

The fact you see your “target audience” in a different way than I defined doesn’t change the essentially meaning behind what I say.

If you’re trying to bring back people into the faith lost through mis-application of mysticism (and I’m not sure that’s what you’re doing) . . . then you must see how interconnected we all are.

In short, to be sucessful in your calling you’ll need to understand what those still in the faith profess and believe about our mystical tradition. To do otherwise is to try and put a square peg in a round hole.

Dave.

And BTW - If you find yourself constantly “ticking people off” shouldn’t that tell you something?? My guess is the proper answer shouldn’t be it’s a “women” thing. Besides just being wrong, you’ll be sacrificing 50% of your potential sales 🙂
 
Dear Darin,
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You:
My target audience is actually fallen away Catholics who left the True Faith for UFO cults, Gurus, Evangelical Churches, Channelers and other strange groups that say they have the truth but in fact dont. That is the calling that I believe God has called me to.
What’s wrong with me, Darin? Your double-talk, which makes me highly suspicious of your motives.
You in your previous posts on the Forum:
I doubt that the Catholic Church is the True Faith. Many religions claim to be a True Faith. I have read a lot of Catholic Theology and have my own little Catholic library. It presupposes a basic faith I don’t know if I have anymore.

I understand why protestants on fire for Jesus join the Catholic Church. As a cradle Catholic totally immersed in secular culture and an avid reader of history, I doubt the Catholic church is the “True Faith”. Does that make sense?

Jesus came to counter-act original sin. Which means I must literally believe the Adam and Eve story. I don’t. The jewish creation story comes from the Babalonian one which come from the Summer one. Much of the Torah come from the code of Hammerabi.

Is Jesus the only guy to rise from the dead? Nope, there are many Chinese stories of their mystics rising from the dead.
 
Hello, All, nice to have your company for these interesting discussions.

Contemporary mystic and former Carmelite nun Bernadette Roberts cautions against making too much of these stage theories.

**Strictly speaking, the terms “purgative”, “illuminative”, and “unitive” (often used of the contemplative path) do not refer to discrete stages, but to a way of travel where “letting go”, “insight”, and “union”, define the major experiences of the journey. **

**To illustrate the continuum, authors come up with various stages, depending on the criteria they are using. St. Teresa, for example, divided the path into seven stages or “mansions”. **

**But I don’t think we should get locked into any stage theory: it is always someone else’s retrospective view of his or her own journey, which may not include our own experiences or insights. **

Our obligation is to be true to our own insights, our own inner light.
 
Hi Buzz -

And that’s probably why I love Br. Lawrence so much! No stages, no states, no terms, no definitions . . . just love 24/7. And isn’t that what it’s all about anyway?

Dave
 
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DarinHamel:
DBT,
You posted as I was writing. My target audience is actually fallen away Catholics who left the True Faith for UFO cults, Gurus, Evangelical Churches, Channelers and other strange groups that say they have the truth but in fact dont. That is the calling that I believe God has called me to.

In a perfect world (Joysongs) when a Catholic has a mystical experience they go to their priest and he explains it and encourages the approporate thing. In the real world the priest is over worked and had only one or two courses in mystical theology 20 years ago and he usually doesn’t give good advice beyond, “Read this book.”

So then they read it and if they understood it great, but if not they are more likely to pick up a book on Chakras or Chi Gong than one by Garrigou-Lagrange. While Joysong may say these people who join a kundalini cult didn’t have an authentic experience in the first place I say we can be given profound graces and still retain free will and royally screw up.

Thank you for you calm and reasoned response Dave. In every forum that I join it seems I tick off the women. I understand my approach is intense and I get worked up, but this is my lifes work. I will not compromise the task I believe God has given me.
Thank you Darin for response, I too am have a problem relating “illumination” to proper worship. And I have been met by a wide assortment of folks bringing me books and idea’s. This seems to be a distraction to me. I have found that I must presevere in the written Word and in Spirit. This, as I am finding out, is thought of as fundalmentalism by some in the Church. I have also seen a tempting, compared to a testing of the Spirit by elders in my parish. This has been discouraging and a temptation to turn to another more spiritual form of worship, away from the Church. Ah, but I feel that this is wrong, to turn away from the Church. It seems my advisers in the Church are leaving room for the Lord and my Spiritual reward is in my preseverance in seeking Him truthfully. This seems in itself purgation. I have no study background in any “Mystical Ways” or much in theologies of the Church. Just recent personal experiances that has strengthened my Faith. Could Faith one more thing to add to your ideas? Does Faith superseed all study? What if I couldn’t read? As my youngest children can’t yet. They believe in innocence. Ah to be like them is admirable, simple, faithful. Thank you Darin, peace, Tim
 
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DBT:
Hi Buzz -

And that’s probably why I love Br. Lawrence so much! No stages, no states, no terms, no definitions . . . just love 24/7. And isn’t that what it’s all about anyway?

Dave
Hello Dave

Good to see you 🙂 . I liked your post.

Personally I do not see any of the stages as seperate at all, they are interchanged and interlocked. St Teresa of Avila and St John of the Cross ( who must have loved so very much, so much their souls are conformed to the Likeness of Love, to their ultimate union with Love) defined what happens to souls on their spiritual journey with the Lord if they co-operate with Him and that is a big IF. However these stages are not stages that happen one after the other or in a definite order, they happen woven together and the thing that weaves them together is Love.

The only way to understand this journey with the Lord that has been called ‘mansions’ or stages is to travel with Him through them, then understanding is gifted by the power of the Holy Spirit and no amount of reading or seeking opinion will aid a soul until they have journeyed a long way in this manner and the only one who can teach them is the Good Teacher and the instrument of His instruction is Love whereas we must love much in order to be taught.

The only way to be unified with Love is to love and to love we must be formed to His likeness and in being formed to His likeness we are purged, illuminated and unified step by step simultaneously until prefect union with Love is achieved and this is only achieved when our souls resemble that of our Spouse. It is this simple and no book can teach the heart and soul as the Good Teacher does, but these books do exist to aid the soul setting out upon this journey, those who leave the journey because they feel failed do not understand the journey, it is one of trust and love, even if we do not always understand it, we must trust that the Lord will grant retrospect to understand it and we can only understand Love if we too love as He Loves.

Far from academia, it is a journey of Love and Love is never boastful, nor is it proud. Love is the perfect development of all of the virtues to an heroic level so much so that it matures the infantile human spirit into a mature selfless charitable spirit that does not think of themselves nor of books nor of earthly things, but only of Love of God and for His sake, rather than the sake of others, loves others. The self and all desires are abandoned to the Divine Will and everything else is expendable to such a soul, even forgetting and having indifference towards it’s own sufferings as all is joy and peace to it because it lives in Love.

But Dave, you already know all of that 🙂 .

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
Hi Teresa!

Good to see another kindred soul 🙂

For all the teaching our Saints and Doctors have given us about the way of prayer through their various formulations they never lost sight of the essential truth behind it all . . . love. They truely humble me.

Dave
 
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DBT:
And that’s probably why I love Br. Lawrence so much! No stages, no states, no terms, no definitions . . . just love 24/7. And isn’t that what it’s all about anyway?
Good idea. I just went and took his book out of the library.
 
DBT Posted:
And that’s probably why I love Br. Lawrence so much! No stages, no states, no terms, no definitions . . . just love 24/7. And isn’t that what it’s all about anyway?
My personal favorite is the Cloud of Unknowing. But yes Brother Lawrence is a favorite too. Very simple and I love simple.

BuzzCutt Wrote:
But I don’t think we should get locked into any stage theory: it is always someone else’s retrospective view of his or her own journey, which may not include our own experiences or insights.

I can see the truth in that and why some would wish to not use a system of development that might be seen as rigid. Can you see the truth in using physical growth as an analogy to spiritual growth. Can you see clear demarcation events signaling entrance into the different phases of physical life as it advances on it’s natural course. Many and not just me have also noted clear demarcation events signaling entrance into the different phases of the spiritual life.

JOYSONG Wrote:
What’s wrong with me, Darin? Your double-talk, which makes me highly suspicious of your motives.

Joysong,
For the FORTH time, attack my ideas and not me! For someone who said she was going to stop posting you sure are posting alot. I am not perfect. I have doubts. I admit it. Are you satisfied, I HAVE DOUBTS! I am a also conflicted on a great many things in the True Faith. Hence, I am asking lots of questions. Now stop posting out of context what I wrote in earlier threads and go away before you get this thread locked out. I want answers and opinions on the three ways and you have nothing but personal attacks.

To all,
FOR THE RECORD, I have been convinced that the order is from Purgation, Illumination and then Union. God first implants the desire to seek Him and that was the key for me.

Now it looks like the thead is defending the usefulness of having named phases in the spiritual life at all.
 
Dear Darin

Now I am being tough with you and you can accept it or not, that is your decision, but the truth is truth.

You base this on your personal experience but the experience betrays the fruits of the person and no-one expects someone to be perfect but you are now displaying behaviour that does not match with what you claim you have experienced.

You are less than kind with posters, infact very rude and you ask for ideas of yours to be clarified with others thoughts but do not care to hear constructive criticism.

Now I am going to be very honest with you, you are displaying signs of spiritual pride and this is not what I desire for you, so I state it in love to you and not in a manner to hurt you.

As all of the sins of lust, envy, greed etc are present in material/physical/corporal matters so you’ll find them sure enough in spiritual matters. It is my best guess that you have undergone purgation of the senses and you are now being led into purgatiuon of the spirit by the Lord, but you must first recognise these things as temptation before you will be purged of them, so you see illumination comes before purgation sometimes and mixed with unifictaion before the prufication takes place and it is not so clear cut as you would like to put God into a box. Plus your box is not necessarily the box of another as God knows best how to deal within His laws how to cultivate each individual unique soul and so each man walks his own path with the Lord and undergoes purgation, illumination and unification, God willing, in the manner seen fit by the Lord and interchanging as He sees fit to draw each soul to Himself.

Anyway don’t take my words too harshly to your heart as they are said in love of you. You may see me as your greatest enemy now, but in time you will see me as your greatest friend and realise my love for you as my brother in Christ in my words to you.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
Theresa wrote:*
You are less than kind with posters, infact very rude and you ask for ideas of yours to be clarified with others thoughts but do not care to hear constructive criticism.*

I want constructive criticism on my ideas not me Theresa. This thread is about the Three Mystical Ways not me! I am a full grown man too so show me some respect and I will do the same.

Theresa Wrote:
God knows best how to deal within His laws how to cultivate each individual unique soul and so each man walks his own path with the Lord and undergoes purgation, illumination and unification, God willing, in the manner seen fit by the Lord and interchanging as He sees fit to draw each soul to Himself.

True, God can do anything He wants to. Do you have an example of God reversing the normal order taught by St John of the Cross?
 
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DarinHamel:
Theresa wrote:
You are less than kind with posters, infact very rude and you ask for ideas of yours to be clarified with others thoughts but do not care to hear constructive criticism.

I want constructive criticism on my ideas not me Theresa. This thread is about the Three Mystical Ways not me! I am a full grown man too so show me some respect and I will do the same.

Theresa Wrote:
God knows best how to deal within His laws how to cultivate each individual unique soul and so each man walks his own path with the Lord and undergoes purgation, illumination and unification, God willing, in the manner seen fit by the Lord and interchanging as He sees fit to draw each soul to Himself.

True, God can do anything He wants to. Do you have an example of God reversing the normal order taught by St John of the Cross?
Dear friend

Every man is a walking example. St Teresa and St John of the Cross identified these three aspects of mystical formation in the lord they did not say ever specifically that they follow this order clear cut.

Your talk and thread lacks peace, that is a problem for me and for other posters. Not only are you not at peace with others Darin, you are not at peace yourself and how you handle your own debates does impeach on yourself no matter what subject matter you bring forward for discussion and to be honest you could be debating the colour green for all I care, it is the manner in which it is debated and this is inextricably linked to YOU as a person, friend.

I warn you, I don’t log onto catholic answers to be treated as an enemy and further to this I don’t debate in threads to be spoken to as I have been in this thread by yourself. This is a thread purely seeking argument.

I won’t be buying any book you may write nor recommend it to another person. I seriously question your intentions, such lack of kindness does not lead to seeking brotherly and sisterly debate. Further to this if you are so sure of your convictions why do you need anyone else’s (name removed by moderator)ut? This is just a thread to cause discord and I’ve frankly had enough of it. You will say don’t post then in (your brusque fashion) I would say to you, don’t post in your fashion!

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
PROBLEM: not enough charity (on a thread about spiritual paths, no less).

ACTION: thread closed pending admin review by Moderator.
 
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