3 questions for non-catholics?

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  1. Looking for as many examples as possible, from non-Catholics (specifically protestant friends) - where the early catholic church leaders (or dissenters outside the CC; please provide names of dissenters or dissenting groups) - believed and subscribed to the notion that the Bible alone was for them, the Christians final authority via individual interpretation,* (making each and every Christian the final authoritative interpreter of the Bible) - as opposed to the catholic church leadership being the final authority/interpreter of the holy Bible?*
  2. Looking for as many examples as possible, from non-Catholics (specifically protestant friends) - where the early church leaders, within the catholic church, (or dissenters outside the CC; please provide names of dissenters or dissenting groups) -also believed and subscribed to the idea that no portion of Jesus’ revelation had been preserved in the form of oral tradition, independent of the holy bible?
  3. For our protestant friends who believe that the early catholic church embraced oral tradition up to a point, at which point all oral tradition was finally committed to the holy Bible, my question is: Specifically when did this occur (date) - and who decided what would be included and what wouldn’t be included?
 
Hard to speak to your questions when you start with the premise that the catholic church is the church that Christ created, rather that the correct premise that the church is made up of all Christians.
 
Hard to speak to your questions when you start with the premise that the catholic church is the church that Christ created, rather that the correct premise that the church is made up of all Christians.
Well, then let’s start by naming the church founded by Jesus, (assuming that the CC was not the church created by Christ) - that existed alongside the supposed man-made catholic church, for the first 1000 years of Christianity?

Then, simply apply my 3 questions to that one church established by Christ? 👍
 
Hard to speak to your questions when you start with the premise that the catholic church is the church that Christ created, rather that the correct premise that the church is made up of all Christians.
The Body of Christ is made up of all baptized Christians. We Catholics believe however that the CC is the fullness of the faith as we have scripture, tradition, and magesterium, which come to us from the apostles.

The OP is simply asking protestants to justify your belief in sola scriptura and your case against sacred oral tradition.
 
The Body of Christ is made up of all baptized Christians. We Catholics believe however that the CC is the fullness of the faith as we have scripture, tradition, and magesterium, which come to us from the apostles.

The OP is simply asking protestants to justify your belief in sola scriptura and your case against sacred oral tradition.
Exactly!!! The Body of Christ is made up of all baptized Christians. Thanks for the clarification. 👍
 
I know you have all heard this before but I want you to consider it once again with the evidence I will put forth. I think the number of denominations is a good case against sola scriptura. If Christianity were originally meant to be run under sola scriptura then there would be one Church, and a lot of Christian practices, including the sacraments, would all be agreed upon by all Christians, but they’re not. Many Protestants bring up the idea of “essentials vs. non-essentials,” which I think is a very bad approach because Christ and his apostles established a faith, not a sort of “template” for different expressions of the Christian faith. The variation in belief about things like the sacraments is a bad thing especially the Eucharist because Paul says when we eat and drink the body and blood unworthily we eat and drink our own damnation. When Paul talks about the Eucharist in scripture, he doesn’t describe in detail what the Eucharist is or how exactly we are to celebrate it, because he expects us to already know that. That’s because we are supposed to know, since it’s taught by the Church (you know, the one which Christ founded). Also there are so many things in scripture that are a part of the Catholic Church and not a part of most protestant churches today such as holy orders (laying on of hands), anointing of the sick (described in the book of James), and bishops (described by Paul in his epistles). Most Protestant Churches try to do as little of this as possible because they choose to interpret the Bible differently. We want to know how you justify this.
 
Cheers,

Quotes from CCC
779 The Church is both visible and spiritual, a hierarchical society and the Mystical Body of Christ. She is one, yet formed of two components, human and divine. That is her mystery, which only faith can accept.
1474 The Christian who seeks to purify himself of his sin and to become holy with the help of God’s grace is not alone. “The life of each of God’s children is joined in Christ and through Christ in a wonderful way to the life of all the other Christian brethren in the supernatural unity of the Mystical Body of Christ, as in a single mystical person.”
God bless,
AM
 
Calgar let me rephrase the question for you:
  1. Looking for as many examples as possible form our protestant friends where the early leaders of Jesus’ church, made up of all Christians (or dissenters outside said church; please provide names of dissenters or dissenting groups) - believed and subscribed to the notion that the Bible alone was, for them, the Christians final authority via individual interpretation, (making each and every Christian the final authoritative interpreter of the Bible) - as opposed to the early leaders of Jesus’ church being the final authority/interpreter of the holy Bible?
  2. Looking for as many examples as possible, from our protestant friends where the early leaders of Jesus’ church, (or dissenters outside said church; please provide names of dissenters or dissenting groups) -also believed and subscribed to the idea that no portion of Jesus’ revelation had been preserved in the form of oral tradition, independent of the holy bible?
  3. For our protestant friends who believe that the early leaders of Jesus’ church, made up of all Christians, embraced oral tradition up to a point, at which point all oral tradition was finally committed to the holy Bible, my question is: Specifically when did this occur (date) - and who decided what would be included and what wouldn’t be included? 👍

 
The Body of Christ is made up of all baptized Christians. We Catholics believe however that the CC is the fullness of the faith as we have scripture, tradition, and magesterium, which come to us from the apostles.

The OP is simply asking protestants to justify your belief in sola scriptura and your case against sacred oral tradition.
who said that the Church is made up of all those so called Christians and not just hte CC?
 
who said that the Church is made up of all those so called Christians and not just hte CC?
The Catholic Church does.
818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272
  1. If we are accepted by the CC as brothers, then we are of the same family.
  2. If we are incorporated in Christ in Baptism, then even according to the CC, we are in the Church.
819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276
From a Catholic perspective, my “ecclesial community” has many elements of sanctification and truth, and since those elements are, according to the CC, part of the fullness of truth found in the CC, then the members of our “ecclesial community” are indeed part of the Church Catholic.

Jon
 
The Catholic Church does.
  1. If we are accepted by the CC as brothers, then we are of the same family.
  2. If we are incorporated in Christ in Baptism, then even according to the CC, we are in the Church.
From a Catholic perspective, my “ecclesial community” has many elements of sanctification and truth, and since those elements are, according to the CC, part of the fullness of truth found in the CC, then the members of our “ecclesial community” are indeed part of the Church Catholic.

Jon
It does not say that you are part of the CC. It does not say that at all. that is your wishful thinking.

No statement is found that states those outside the Church are part of the Church. where do u see as such?
 
It does not say that you are part of the CC. It does not say that at all. that is your wishful thinking.
It has nothing to do with “wishful thinking” on my part, though I pray regularly for reconciliation within Christ’s Church, as He called us all to be one.
No statement is found that states those outside the Church are part of the Church. where do u see as such?
Here:
Even in the beginnings of this one and only Church of God there arose certain rifts,(19) which the Apostle strongly condemned.(20) But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions made their appearance and quite large communities came to be separated from full communion with the Catholic Church-for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame. The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection. For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect. The differences that exist in varying degrees between them and the Catholic Church-whether in doctrine and sometimes in discipline, or concerning the structure of the Church-do indeed create many obstacles, sometimes serious ones, to full ecclesiastical communion. The ecumenical movement is striving to overcome these obstacles. But even in spite of them it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ’s body,(21) and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.(22
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html

If the leaders of the Catholic Church say I am in communion with the Catholic Church, albeit an imperfect communion, how do you define “communion” otherwise?

Jon
 
Hey Jon, how ya doin’ brother?
JonNC;8297227]It has nothing to do with “wishful thinking” on my part, though I pray regularly for reconciliation within Christ’s Church, as He called us all to be one.
If the leaders of the Catholic Church say I am in communion with the Catholic Church, albeit an imperfect communion, how do you define “communion” otherwise?
Jon, I too pray that one day a perfect communion, as our Lord prayed for, will be realized: “I pray that they will all be one, just as you and I are one—as you are in me, Father, and I am in you. And may they be in us so that the world will believe you sent me.”

I was really hoping, after 253 views, that one of these viewers (die-hard sola scriptura advocates that is) - would have responded to the OP. I guess that was wishful thinking…
 
Hard to speak to your questions when you start with the premise that the catholic church is the church that Christ created, rather that the correct premise that the church is made up of all Christians.
Well it is a fact of history and life Christ did not create ANY Protestant church. The church is made up all Christians? True to an extent though. Jesus founded ONE church,not thousands with an array of beliefs and teachings all claiming to be technically ONE. No where does Jesus nor the Apostles open up their own separate church with different beliefs and doctrines and all claiming: The church is made up of all Christians. No offense,but that is a false Protestant premise.
 
two answers
  1. Why would any Protestant want to respond to this? There are plenty of resources. Start with Martin Luther and work your way from there. There really isn’t any reason to ask this question other than to stir up trouble and arguments over skubala. If a Christian accepts and follows Christ, great. But this is a petty topic.
  2. If you have a case to state with sola scriptura, why is the catechism even mentioned? We don’t accept it’s authority, so it has no place in this argument. I love all Christians, but I reject the Catechism. Sorry. To go into why would take more time than is worth to me. I think more important than this is the faxt that there are people who don’t believe in Christ because Christians are too busy fighting over who is holier (just like his apostles did before they finally realized it’s not about them, but Christ).
Anyway, as a follower of Christ, I’m just saying that there are more important things, like sharing the Gospel. I hope you don’t take this all to offense, but rather, accept it as a loving and honest response. Also, my only response. People don’t get saved if we’re all sitting at a computer arguing with each other.
 
=joe370;8298042]Hey Jon, how ya doin’ brother?
Doing well, my friend, as I hope you are. As I recall, you were going through a job transition. If so, I pray it has worked out well.
Jon, I too pray that one day a perfect communion, as our Lord prayed for, will be realized: “I pray that they will all be one, just as you and I are one—as you are in me, Father, and I am in you. And may they be in us so that the world will believe you sent me.”
👍
I was really hoping, after 253 views, that one of these viewers (die-hard sola scriptura advocates that is) - would have responded to the OP. I guess that was wishful thinking…
Well, you know my views, particularly on the personal interpretation part, so that’s why I didn’t comment on the original OP. That said, here’s hoping for a charitable and well thought dialogue.

Jon
 
  1. Looking for as many examples as possible, from non-Catholics (specifically protestant friends) - where the early catholic church leaders (or dissenters outside the CC; please provide names of dissenters or dissenting groups) - believed and subscribed to the notion that the Bible alone was for them, the Christians final authority via individual interpretation,* (making each and every Christian the final authoritative interpreter of the Bible) - as opposed to the catholic church leadership being the final authority/interpreter of the holy Bible?*
  2. Looking for as many examples as possible, from non-Catholics (specifically protestant friends) - where the early church leaders, within the catholic church, (or dissenters outside the CC; please provide names of dissenters or dissenting groups) -also believed and subscribed to the idea that no portion of Jesus’ revelation had been preserved in the form of oral tradition, independent of the holy bible?
  3. For our protestant friends who believe that the early catholic church embraced oral tradition up to a point, at which point all oral tradition was finally committed to the holy Bible, my question is: Specifically when did this occur (date) - and who decided what would be included and what wouldn’t be included?
I guess I don’t know what a “hardcore Sola Scriptura believer” is. However the problem you are having in getting responses is that you have phrased this Sola in straw man form. No one believes the doctrine you have defined here, at least none that I would think of Christian. It is true many of the so-called “Enthusiast/Charismatic” sects would probably define the Sola this way, at least in practice as I doubt seriously if they could articulate the doctrine at all, but in those groups there is such a radical departure from orthodox Christianity that I would hard pressed to think of them as being Christian at all.

Sola Scriptura does not, and never has, taught that people are allowed to interpret the Bible for themselves. Neither does it teach that tradition is of no value and to be jettisoned. Remember Luther was an Augustinian Monk who built his theology upon Augustine I would think it very strange for him to have said that tradition was of no value.

What Luther said was that in the Church’s tradition, in which he included encyclicals, councils, and writings, there are apparent contradictions and times when the Church plainly contradicted herself. For example she condemned Pelagius, and Cassianus as heretics in favor of Augustine, and then constructed a soteriology which set aside Augustine in favor of a more Cassianus mode. What Luther said is that if in the fifth century the Church had declared Augustine’s clear teaching that it was God who justified and made men righteous before Himself, then it was absurd to now teach that men had to cooperate with grace and do works of satisfaction by which they could effect their own salvation.

Luther therefore said that since this controversy existed the thing to do was to return the Scripture and see the clear teaching of Paul, Peter and Christ that all who are saved are chosen by God and then, and only then, do works flow forth which result from this salvation and do not contribute to it. Thus when he was ordered to recant he said that Scripture, and Scripture alone, was the only thing which could bind the conscience of men in what they believed and while tradition and Church teaching was of great value, in those places where it deviated from Scripture, Scripture itself must be held above any and all tradition.

This may not have ever been clearly stated by the Fathers, but you need only see how greatly they held the Scripture to see that the teaching was implied.

But no one would teach that they have the right to open the Scripture apart from any and all tradition to interpret it for themselves. Rather that tradition helps us because it shows a clear thread of consistent teaching throughout the ages, and where the Church has deviated from this thread, she has erred, and therefore the Church must submit herself to the Word of God in spite of its councils. Because to do otherwise is to appeal to human authority above the Bible’s, and that is a serous breach of Christian teaching in any age.

God Bless
 
I guess I don’t know what a “hardcore Sola Scriptura believer” is. However the problem you are having in getting responses is that you have phrased this Sola in straw man form. No one believes the doctrine you have defined here, at least none that I would think of Christian. It is true many of the so-called “Enthusiast/Charismatic” sects would probably define the Sola this way, at least in practice as I doubt seriously if they could articulate the doctrine at all, but in those groups there is such a radical departure from orthodox Christianity that I would hard pressed to think of them as being Christian at all.

Sola Scriptura does not, and never has, taught that people are allowed to interpret the Bible for themselves. Neither does it teach that tradition is of no value and to be jettisoned. Remember Luther was an Augustinian Monk who built his theology upon Augustine I would think it very strange for him to have said that tradition was of no value.

What Luther said was that in the Church’s tradition, in which he included encyclicals, councils, and writings, there are apparent contradictions and times when the Church plainly contradicted herself. For example she condemned Pelagius, and Cassianus as heretics in favor of Augustine, and then constructed a soteriology which set aside Augustine in favor of a more Cassianus mode. What Luther said is that if in the fifth century the Church had declared Augustine’s clear teaching that it was God who justified and made men righteous before Himself, then it was absurd to now teach that men had to cooperate with grace and do works of satisfaction by which they could effect their own salvation.

Luther therefore said that since this controversy existed the thing to do was to return the Scripture and see the clear teaching of Paul, Peter and Christ **that all who are saved are chosen by God and then, and only then, do works flow forth which result from this salvation and do not contribute to it. **Thus when he was ordered to recant he said that Scripture, and Scripture alone, was the only thing which could bind the conscience of men in what they believed and while tradition and Church teaching was of great value, in those places where it deviated from Scripture, Scripture itself must be held above any and all tradition.

This may not have ever been clearly stated by the Fathers, but you need only see how greatly they held the Scripture to see that the teaching was implied.

But no one would teach that they have the right to open the Scripture apart from any and all tradition to interpret it for themselves. Rather that tradition helps us because it shows a clear thread of consistent teaching throughout the ages, and where the Church has deviated from this thread, she has erred, and therefore the Church must submit herself to the Word of God in spite of its councils. Because to do otherwise is to appeal to human authority above the Bible’s, and that is a serous breach of Christian teaching in any age.

God Bless
I agree what what you have said here, but just please clarify the bolded, so it can’t be construed as Calvinist unconditional election and limited atonement.

Jon
 
I guess I don’t know what a “hardcore Sola Scriptura believer” is. However the problem you are having in getting responses is that you have phrased this Sola in straw man form. No one believes the doctrine you have defined here, at least none that I would think of Christian. It is true many of the so-called “Enthusiast/Charismatic” sects would probably define the Sola this way, at least in practice as I doubt seriously if they could articulate the doctrine at all, but in those groups there is such a radical departure from orthodox Christianity that I would hard pressed to think of them as being Christian at all.

Sola Scriptura does not, and never has, taught that people are allowed to interpret the Bible for themselves. Neither does it teach that tradition is of no value and to be jettisoned. Remember Luther was an Augustinian Monk who built his theology upon Augustine I would think it very strange for him to have said that tradition was of no value.

What Luther said was that in the Church’s tradition, in which he included encyclicals, councils, and writings, there are apparent contradictions and times when the Church plainly contradicted herself. For example she condemned Pelagius, and Cassianus as heretics in favor of Augustine, and then constructed a soteriology which set aside Augustine in favor of a more Cassianus mode. What Luther said is that if in the fifth century the Church had declared Augustine’s clear teaching that it was God who justified and made men righteous before Himself, then it was absurd to now teach that men had to cooperate with grace and do works of satisfaction by which they could effect their own salvation.

Luther therefore said that since this controversy existed the thing to do was to return the Scripture and see the clear teaching of Paul, Peter and Christ that all who are saved are chosen by God and then, and only then, do works flow forth which result from this salvation and do not contribute to it. Thus when he was ordered to recant he said that Scripture, and Scripture alone, was the only thing which could bind the conscience of men in what they believed and while tradition and Church teaching was of great value, in those places where it deviated from Scripture, Scripture itself must be held above any and all tradition.

This may not have ever been clearly stated by the Fathers, but you need only see how greatly they held the Scripture to see that the teaching was implied.

But no one would teach that they have the right to open the Scripture apart from any and all tradition to interpret it for themselves. Rather that tradition helps us because it shows a clear thread of consistent teaching throughout the ages, and where the Church has deviated from this thread, she has erred, and therefore the Church must submit herself to the Word of God in spite of its councils. Because to do otherwise is to appeal to human authority above the Bible’s, and that is a serous breach of Christian teaching in any age.

God Bless
And luther has decided. So, luther has authority over the Church. Interesting.
How is the Bible alone working for you guys protestants? so, when you all go to the Bible to define whatever question u have, how is it working for you all? how is the Bible deciding for protestants? how come you all teach a different thing from each other? when God and Jesus and the HS do not dissagree with each other.
 
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