3 questions for non-catholics?

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=wisdomseeker;8298573]And luther has decided. So, luther has authority over the Church. Interesting.
You know what? Show me where the poster says Luther has authority?
How is the Bible alone working for you guys protestants? so, when you all go to the Bible to define whatever question u have, how is it working for you all?
how is the Bible deciding for protestants? how come you all teach a different thing from each other? when God and Jesus and the HS do not dissagree with each other.
First, there is no “all you protestants”. Never has been.
The poster is a Lutheran, as am I. He clearly stated that Lutherans don’t do the personal interpretation thing, but I’ll explain it for you. Lutherans are bound to the Lutheran confessions, as we view that as a right reflection of scripture. We also accept the early councils and creeds. For a Lutheran pastor or layman to contradict the doctrines of the confessions, councils and creeds sets him outside Lutheranism. How protestants, regardless of their denomination, decide what is or isn’t doctrine is up to them. We don’t compare notes with them, other than in dialogue. We don’t say it is ok for them to be wrong when they are wrong. And frankly, the “whose authority” thing just rings hollow so long as East and West claim the same authority, yet differ. And as long as East and West can’t agree on Tradition, perhaps scripture is the safest refuge.

Jon
 
You know what? Show me where the poster says Luther has authority?

First, there is no “all you protestants”. Never has been.
The poster is a Lutheran, as am I. He clearly stated that Lutherans don’t do the personal interpretation thing, but I’ll explain it for you. Lutherans are bound to the Lutheran confessions, as we view that as a right reflection of scripture. We also accept the early councils and creeds. For a Lutheran pastor or layman to contradict the doctrines of the confessions, councils and creeds sets him outside Lutheranism. How protestants, regardless of their denomination, decide what is or isn’t doctrine is up to them. We don’t compare notes with them, other than in dialogue. We don’t say it is ok for them to be wrong when they are wrong. And frankly, the “whose authority” thing just rings hollow so long as East and West claim the same authority, yet differ. And as long as East and West can’t agree on Tradition, perhaps scripture is the safest refuge.

Jon
again here you continue to deny the authority of the CC. the Fathers of the CC in no way ever supported anyone outside the CC. they are not your friends. they condemn all heresies.

the Orthodox church is not to be compared with protestants.
Again I ask you how is Scriptures working for the protestants since they are outside the CC and rely on Scriptures only?
 
Basically the Lutherans dropped Catholic traditions, creeds, and confessions and made up their own traditions, creeds and confession to replace them?

In the end, it makes everything appear man-made,
 
=wisdomseeker;8298801]again here you continue to deny the authority of the CC. the Fathers of the CC in no way ever supported anyone outside the CC. they are not your friends. they condemn all heresies.
No. I continue to deny the authority that the CC claims that is not consistent with the early Church. I continue to deny a claim to authority that, in the early Church was shared by all the patriarchs in unity, the unity which has been missing for a thousand years.
the Orthodox church is not to be compared with protestants.
A dodge, because I never compared the two. Do you deny their authority?
Again I ask you how is Scriptures working for the protestants since they are outside the CC and rely on Scriptures only?
I suspect if you ask them, they will say quite well, thank you.

Jon
 
Hey bogeydogg…🙂
It is true many of the so-called “Enthusiast/Charismatic” sects would probably define the Sola this way, at least in practice as I doubt seriously if they could articulate the doctrine at all, but in those groups there is such a radical departure from orthodox Christianity that I would hard pressed to think of them as being Christian at all.
I don’t know if those groups would agree with you but, OK…
I guess I don’t know what a “hardcore Sola Scriptura believer” is. However the problem you are having in getting responses is that you have phrased this Sola in straw man form. No one believes the doctrine you have defined here, at least none that I would think of Christian…But no one would teach that they have the right to open the Scripture apart from any and all tradition to interpret it for themselves.
So sola scriptura advocates within orthodox Christianity, do not believe or subscribe to the notion that the Bible alone is the Christians final authority via individual interpretation, making each and every Christian the final authoritative interpreter of the Bible? OK, that’s a start…

Logically, if Sola Scriptura does not, and never has, taught that each and every Christian was/is endowed with the authority to interpret the Bible for themselves, then the early catholic church leaders more than likely agreed - correct?

If so, then who was, and continues to be, entrusted, by God, with the authority (upon submitting to the Bible) - to interpret scripture?
I guess I don’t know what a “hardcore Sola Scriptura believer” is. However the problem you are having in getting responses is that you have phrased this Sola in straw man form. No one believes the doctrine you have defined here, at least none that I would think of Christian. It is true many of the so-called “Enthusiast/Charismatic” sects would probably define the Sola this way, at least in practice as I doubt seriously if they could articulate the doctrine at all, but in those groups there is such a radical departure from orthodox Christianity that I would hard pressed to think of them as being Christian at all.

Sola Scriptura does not, and never has, taught that people are allowed to interpret the Bible for themselves. Neither does it teach that tradition is of no value and to be jettisoned. Remember Luther was an Augustinian Monk who built his theology upon Augustine I would think it very strange for him to have said that tradition was of no value.

What Luther said was that in the Church’s tradition, in which he included encyclicals, councils, and writings, there are apparent contradictions and times when the Church plainly contradicted herself. For example she condemned Pelagius, and Cassianus as heretics in favor of Augustine, and then constructed a soteriology which set aside Augustine in favor of a more Cassianus mode. What Luther said is that if in the fifth century the Church had declared Augustine’s clear teaching that it was God who justified and made men righteous before Himself, then it was absurd to now teach that men had to cooperate with grace and do works of satisfaction by which they could effect their own salvation.

Luther therefore said that since this controversy existed the thing to do was to return the Scripture and see the clear teaching of Paul, Peter and Christ that all who are saved are chosen by God and then, and only then, do works flow forth which result from this salvation and do not contribute to it. Thus when he was ordered to recant he said that Scripture, and Scripture alone, was the only thing which could bind the conscience of men in what they believed and while tradition and Church teaching was of great value, in those places where it deviated from Scripture, Scripture itself must be held above any and all tradition.

This may not have ever been clearly stated by the Fathers, but you need only see how greatly they held the Scripture to see that the teaching was implied.

But no one would teach that they have the right to open the Scripture apart from any and all tradition to interpret it for themselves. Rather that tradition helps us because it shows a clear thread of consistent teaching throughout the ages, and where the Church has deviated from this thread, she has erred, and therefore the Church must submit herself to the Word of God in spite of its councils. Because to do otherwise is to appeal to human authority above the Bible’s, and that is a serous breach of Christian teaching in any age.

God Bless
 
How is the Bible alone working for you guys protestants? so, when you all go to the Bible to define whatever question u have, how is it working for you all? how is the Bible deciding for protestants?
Those are excellent questions!!! The holy bible, by itself, can do nothing, just as the constitution of the US, or my old Geometry book, by themselves, can do nothing, with out an interpreter/teacher. The holy bible needs an authoritative interpreter/teacher. Without one we are simply left with millions of individuals teaching and interpreting the holy bible, claiming to be moved by the holy spirit to do so…It seems to make more sense that Jesus established one church and continues to guide His one church into all truth, regarding His teachings, which of course would include the interpretation of sacred scripture…
 
Doing well, my friend, as I hope you are. As I recall, you were going through a job transition. If so, I pray it has worked out well.

👍

Well, you know my views, particularly on the personal interpretation part, so that’s why I didn’t comment on the original OP. That said, here’s hoping for a charitable and well thought dialogue.

Jon
Yeah, I finally found a job. Phew…Yeah, we are on the same page regarding the OP, for the most part. 👍 I was afraid people would start to accuse me of the ol’ straw man thing, claiming that no sola scriptura advocate believes that the bible is the Christians final authority and that the bible is to be interpreted individually, as bogey mentioned, all the while claiming that the church, as well as every Christian, must submit to the authority of the bible alone, but sadly, failing to mention who did and continues to have the authority to interpret scripture, again, if not the individual Christian!!! A very confusing protestant stance. :confused:

It seems pretty cut and dried: If the early CC leaders did not subscribe to individual interpretation then they must have deferred to the idea that the CC leaders had the final authority vis-a-vis settling doctrinal matters and interpreting scripture - right? Those are our only 2 options - right? 🙂
 
I was really hoping, after 253 views, that one of these viewers (die-hard sola scriptura advocates that is) - would have responded to the OP. I guess that was wishful thinking…
My word. Wait a day or two. :eek:

I’m not so smart that I can instantly belt out answers about all matters. 🙂
 
Hey Jon…
No. I continue to deny the authority that the CC claims that is not consistent with the early Church. I continue to deny a claim to authority that, in the early Church was shared by all the patriarchs in unity, the unity which has been missing for a thousand years.

Brother, I respect your position, as you know, but if you are right and the CC today, and since the great schism, no longer possesses the same Christ ordained authority the early CC possessed, (and of course the same would apply to every Protestant Church) - then the fullness of truth, regarding Jesus’ teachings, have been, sadly, lost for the time being- correct? :eek:
 
My word. Wait a day or two. :eek:

I’m not so smart that I can instantly belt out answers about all matters. 🙂
Thanks for the advice brother! Will do…🙂 👍 I am not so smart either which is why I am asking the questions instead of answering them. Forever in the pursuit of answers and unity within Christianity, after all, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ! :)👍
 
Jesus founded ONE church,not thousands with an array of beliefs and teachings all claiming to be technically ONE. No where does Jesus nor the Apostles open up their own separate church with different beliefs and doctrines and all claiming: The church is made up of all Christians.
What about the eastern orthodox church? The anglicans? There’s two that claim to be the ONE church.
 
How is the Bible alone working for you guys protestants? so, when you all go to the Bible to define whatever question u have, how is it working for you all? how is the Bible deciding for protestants? how come you all teach a different thing from each other? when God and Jesus and the HS do not dissagree with each other.
And the charitable discussion is over…:eek:

The Holy Bible is working great, wisdomseeker.

Now, you did ask a question. I would LOVE to answer it.

how come you all teach a different thing from each other?

Just cite an example and I’ll try my best to answer it. 🙂
 
  1. Looking for as many examples as possible, from non-Catholics (specifically protestant friends) - where the early catholic church leaders (or dissenters outside the CC; please provide names of dissenters or dissenting groups) - believed and subscribed to the notion that the Bible alone was for them, the Christians final authority via individual interpretation,* (making each and every Christian the final authoritative interpreter of the Bible) - as opposed to the catholic church leadership being the final authority/interpreter of the holy Bible?*
  2. Looking for as many examples as possible, from non-Catholics (specifically protestant friends) - where the early church leaders, within the catholic church, (or dissenters outside the CC; please provide names of dissenters or dissenting groups) -also believed and subscribed to the idea that no portion of Jesus’ revelation had been preserved in the form of oral tradition, independent of the holy bible?
  3. For our protestant friends who believe that the early catholic church embraced oral tradition up to a point, at which point all oral tradition was finally committed to the holy Bible, my question is: Specifically when did this occur (date) - and who decided what would be included and what wouldn’t be included?
  1. I am not qualified to answer this. I’m still learning Church history. This would be a good one for a person in seminary.
Okay, I don’t know. 🤷

Is the Holy Bible not sufficient? It’s extremely hard for me to wrap my head around this question. There has never been anything else in my life with the same, or more, authority than God’s Word.
  1. I thought the books of the New Testement were written and not oral history.
I hope someone can answer your questions for you, but it’s probably not going to be me. 🙂
 
And luther has decided. So, luther has authority over the Church. Interesting.
How is the Bible alone working for you guys protestants? so, when you all go to the Bible to define whatever question u have, how is it working for you all? how is the Bible deciding for protestants? how come you all teach a different thing from each other? when God and Jesus and the HS do not dissagree with each other.
Thank you for ignoring my points and construing yet more straw men “all you protestants” instead of answering my objection to Rome’s contradictory teachings. This is exactly what happened at Trent. The reformers asked for a clarification from the bishops and got anathematized instead. And we are supposed to be the schismatics.

God Bless
 
again here you continue to deny the authority of the CC. the Fathers of the CC in no way ever supported anyone outside the CC. they are not your friends. they condemn all heresies.

the Orthodox church is not to be compared with protestants.
Again I ask you how is Scriptures working for the protestants since they are outside the CC and rely on Scriptures only?
The Lutheran Church subscribes to the three Ecumenical Creeds - Apostles’, Nicene (one or the other is said each Sunday), the Anthanasian which is said on Trinity Sunday.
Our Lutheran Confessions are the correct exposition of the Word of God.
We don’t need the the pope or tradition to interpret Scripture, the only correct way is to let Scripture interpret Scripture.
 
Hey bogeydogg…🙂

I don’t know if those groups would agree with you but, OK…

So sola scriptura advocates within orthodox Christianity, do not believe or subscribe to the notion that the Bible alone is the Christians final authority via individual interpretation, making each and every Christian the final authoritative interpreter of the Bible? OK, that’s a start…

Logically, if Sola Scriptura does not, and never has, taught that each and every Christian was/is endowed with the authority to interpret the Bible for themselves, then the early catholic church leaders more than likely agreed - correct?

If so, then who was, and continues to be, entrusted, by God, with the authority (upon submitting to the Bible) - to interpret scripture?
The insistence that the authority of God rests in one place (Rome) is exactly what Augustine criticized in the City of God. The authority of Christ rests upon His Church by the Holy Spirit. The Reformers never argued that this was not so, but that Rome by her practice had cut herself off from communion with the Spirit because her chief interest was in the preservation of earthly power and not in the saving of souls.

I do not think this objection necessarily holds water today because of the real changes Rome effected within her own practice as well as the radical changes in the geopolitical structure of the world. However, the continued insistence that in order to have any discussion concerning the authority of the Bible we must all first recognize the authority of Rome is the very same attitude which caused the Reformation in the first place. So in some things little has changed.

However I do greatly love and respect the Catholic Church, and would love to have cool headed conversations about these things. Sadly however the reply I receive most of the time is not a counter argument but a complaint that I have failed to accept all the preconceived notions of the RCC before arguing that these notions are incorrect. I cannot do that. To insist that I must is not to invite discussion but to slam the door in my face. When I say that I think the authority Rome claims for herself is fraudulent and you reply, “Oh yeah well which Church did Christ found?” that helps nothing. Besides the answer is the Church in Jerusalem.

The authority of the church is the same as that of the Scripture, it the Holy Spirit. The Church’s authority is taught in Scripture handed to the bishops by the Apostles I don’t argue this point in the least. But every time this discussion gets going it only takes a few posts (or the first post) before someone says “Well who established the Canon?” as though Scriptural authority were derived from the Church.

The problem is we only know about Church authority because of the Scripture. And I also notice that anytime someone bothers to complain that the compilation of the Scripture was some 300 years after the fact, all of those who argue for Rome’s authority fearlessly point out that the churches scattered throughout Europe and Asia Minor had long accepted these books before there was an official compiling, for example when questions are raised about the gnostic books.

However when I point out that this recognized authority supersedes that of the Church because it existed long before an official Canon, I am told that the Church’s authority established the Canon. Well that is having your cake and eating it too. Which of course is why these discussions are actually pointless.

Because questions are raised, questions are answered, and then instead of thoughtful discourse what happens instead is the rote answers handed down by folks like Patrick Madrid. I receive these same answers again and again but they do not answer my questions. They simply attempt to silence them.

Well I care nothing for the authority Rome claims for itself because I do think it is fraudulent, however I also think that many good and great things could come of these discussions, but unfortunately so many of you my friends seem unwilling to have the discussion at all.

God Bless
 
Hey Bogey…
bogeydogg;8299575]The insistence that the authority of God rests in one place (Rome) is exactly what Augustine criticized in the City of God.
I was hoping to stay on topic, if at all possible. Augustine definitely deferred to the CC, but I digress:
Code:
  * "If you should find someone who does not yet believe in the gospel, what would you [Mani] answer him when he says, 'I do not believe'? Indeed, I would not believe in the gospel myself if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so" (Against the Letter of Mani Called 'The Foundation' 5:6).
The authority of Christ rests upon His Church by the Holy Spirit.
Agreed. Which church brother if not the CC due to the following statement?
The Reformers never argued that this was not so, but that Rome by her practice had cut herself off from communion with the Spirit because her chief interest was in the preservation of earthly power and not in the saving of souls.
I do not think this objection necessarily holds water today because of the real changes Rome effected within her own practice as well as the radical changes in the geopolitical structure of the world. However, the continued insistence that in order to have any discussion concerning the authority of the Bible we must all first recognize the authority of Rome is the very same attitude which caused the Reformation in the first place. So in some things little has changed.
I never, and would never say: in order to have a discussion concerning the authority of the Bible we must all first recognize the authority of Rome! Let’s leave Rome out of the conversation - Okay??? 👍 Perhaps maybe you could answer my question regarding my last post, to you friend? 👍
However I do greatly love and respect the Catholic Church, and would love to have cool headed conversations about these things.
👍
“Oh yeah well which Church did Christ found?” that helps nothing. Besides the answer is the Church in Jerusalem.
I did not ask that question, but I will bite: Where, in the world today can I find the church founded by Jesus, in Jerusalem circa 33 AD? Perhaps it is every denomination? :confused:
The authority of the church is the same as that of the Scripture, it the Holy Spirit.
So the holy spirit is the interpreter of scripture, and it’s the holy spirit that settles doctrinal differences when they arise? How???
The Church’s authority is taught in Scripture handed to the bishops by the Apostles I don’t argue this point in the least. But every time this discussion gets going it only takes a few posts (or the first post) before someone says “Well who established the Canon?” as though Scriptural authority were derived from the Church.
Scriptural authority was derived from Jesus Christ. Jesus is the Author of sacred scripture, as taught and believed by the CC.
The problem is we only know about Church authority because of the Scripture.
Even if scripture never existed we would still know about Church authority, thanks to the history of Jesus’ church. However, Scripture never explicitly tells us which church in the world today, is the church founded by Jesus, entrusted with authority to teach and interpret scripture. History of course does.
And I also notice that anytime someone bothers to complain that the compilation of the Scripture was some 300 years after the fact, all of those who argue for Rome’s authority fearlessly point out that the churches scattered throughout Europe and Asia Minor had long accepted these books before there was an official compiling, for example when questions are raised about the gnostic books.
However when I point out that this recognized authority supersedes that of the Church because it existed long before an official Canon, I am told that the Church’s authority established the Canon. Well that is having your cake and eating it too. Which of course is why these discussions are actually pointless.
If you do not believe that the Catholic church established the Canon that’s cool. I was hoping to stick to the 3 questions in the OP. 👍
Because questions are raised, questions are answered, and then instead of thoughtful discourse what happens instead is the rote answers handed down by folks like Patrick Madrid. I receive these same answers again and again but they do not answer my questions. They simply attempt to silence them.
I am all for a thoughtful discourse brother regarding the OP. 👍
Well I care nothing for the authority Rome claims for itself because I do think it is fraudulent, however I also think that many good and great things could come of these discussions, but unfortunately so many of you my friends seem unwilling to have the discussion at all.
God Bless
I understand your position regarding Rome, but to be honest, I really didn’t ask. 🙂 Instead of addressing the OP you seem to be on the offense addressing issues I did not raise. Let’s leave Rome out of it and stick to the OP and let’s have fun while we are sticking to the OP. 🙂
 
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